Town Hall Meeting - 26 July 2001

(What follows is a log of the meeting, generated by the host's mIRC software.)

[20:30] <FredGB> I want to welcome everyone to the HTML Writers Guild monthly Town Hall meeting. I'm Frederick Barnet, one of the HWG Governing Board members.
[20:30] *** JaniceUS has joined #townhall
[20:30] <FredGB> Hank, would you like to introduce yourself?
[20:31] <Hank> Hi I'm Hank:)
[20:31] <Hank> ... and I'm new to the GB
[20:31] <Hank> ... I code PHP and teach PHP for the Guild
[20:31] <FredGB> BTW, my last name should read Barnett. :-)
[20:31] <Hank> Live outside Chicago
[20:31] <Hank> That's why it's wrong ...you can't spell it yourself
[20:31] <Hank> :)
[20:32] <Hank> I'm done
[20:32] <FredGB> These meetings are held so the members can come, ask questions about the Guild, or make comments if you wish.
[20:32] <FredGB> Otherwise, it's pretty free-form, so we'll yak about whatever ya'll want. :-)
[20:33] <Hank> anyone care to yak?
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[20:33] <Hank> Hi April
[20:33] <April_023> Hello
[20:33] <JaniceUS> Sure. What about?
[20:33] <FredGB> Any questions or comments, just fire away. Me and Hank will do our best.
[20:34] <FredGB> Hi April.
[20:34] <April_023> Hello Fred
[20:34] <Hank> You pick Janice, anything on your mind? ... q's about or for the guild, the weather
[20:34] <JaniceUS> Does HWG offer a certification?
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[20:34] <FredGB> Hi Glenn.
[20:34] <glenn> Hi Fred
[20:35] <Hank> Not as in a degree or pseudo-degree, but we are exploring course-tracks that would likely have some completion document
[20:35] <FredGB> JaniceUS. At this time, no. We have discussed it, but haven't proceeded any farther than that.
[20:35] <Hank> and right now we have certificates of completion for individual courses
[20:35] <Ronni> I'm working now with wireless web applications, mobile web applications, will there be any classes offered soon?
[20:35] *** Chris_H has joined #townhall
[20:35] <FredGB> Hi Chris.
[20:36] <JaniceUS> I live in Texas, and Austin Community College is offering 2 different Webmaster certification programs. They allow us to take Guild courses and can transfer them as equivalents.
[20:36] <Hank> Anything specific Ronni? WAP? 
[20:36] <FredGB> Intro yourself.
[20:36] <Chris_H> Hi Fred
[20:37] <Chris_H> I'm Chris Higgs, one of the GB, although I've been out of contact the last couple of weeks
[20:37] <Ronni> Hi, I'm Ronni, been long time Guild member, Web Applications developer, who has found her calling in wireless web. :)  WAP, but also Handhelds such as Casios, Palms, and Ipaqs
[20:37] <Chris_H> I'm based in Melbourne Australia
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[20:37] <Hank> Hi Frani
[20:37] <Ronni> Looking for where to go for more learning... this is fascinating stuff
[20:37] <JaniceUS> Hello to you both (Chris & Ronni). I'm a newbie.
[20:37] <Frani> Hi :)
[20:37] <Quail> Hi Frani.. : )
[20:38] <Ronni> Hi Frani and Janice.... 
[20:38] <FredGB> Ronni: the Accessibility class might be of some use. Accessibility isn't just for disabled web surfers, but designing for wireless and mobile access is a part of it too.
[20:38] <FredGB> Hi Franni.
[20:39] <FredGB> That's if you're looking for design info.
[20:39] <Ronni> Oh thats interesting, thanks.  I signed up to get into the discussions on XHTML.... :)
[20:39] <JaniceUS> There are several, actually, that they accept. And HWG's courses are MUCH better (and cheaper, too, I think!) Anyway, the guy who's put this together says people from all over the world have joined up because the entire certification program is on-line; virtual classroom only. It's the only one I've heard of so far.
[20:39] <glenn> what are the new handhelds like with their streaming capability
[20:40] <Hank> Interesting Janice ... that's the first I've heard of it
[20:40] <Ronni> Actually quite nice.  
[20:40] <glenn> do you have  a device ronnie?
[20:40] <Ronni> I have an Ipaq latest and a Japanese Casipia, and both stream.  But we're doing database information management...so
[20:41] <glenn> wont be taking the smil course then so!
[20:41] <Ronni> I'm looking for another syncml course actually.  We're doing syncml transport layers as well
[20:42] <glenn> can you send me some links
[20:43] <Ronni> email?
[20:43] <glenn> glenn@artcon.co.uk, I just surfed to syncml.org!
[20:44] <Ronni> We're listed as one of the 800 companies.  Cogenia.com
[20:44] <glenn> i'll give it a look later thanks
[20:44] <FredGB> Up in the middle of the night again Glenn? :-)
[20:44] <glenn> yep, no sleep for......
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[20:45] <Hank> rest for the wicked is perhaps what you were looking for:)
[20:45] <glenn> great minds.....
[20:45] <JaniceUS> nightcrawlers?   :)
[20:45] <Hank> At least you don't want a pony
[20:45] <Quail> hehehe
[20:46] <Chris_H> I've a question
[20:46] <Chris_H> After all this talk about WAP - do you think the Guild should have a mailing list devoted to it?
[20:46] <Chris_H> Do current lists cover it sufficiently, or are external (non-Guild mailing lists) a better resource?
[20:46] <FredGB> I don't want any pony that's trained Eric Cartman.
[20:46] <FredGB> trained by.
[20:46] <FredGB> :-)
[20:46] <Hank> it was funnier without 'by'
[20:47] <Hank> :)
[20:47] <Ronni> I think a wireless list would be good
[20:47] <Ronni> I know I have spent many hours collecting data, information and such... cause there wasn't one stepping point
[20:48] <glenn> again thats the crux of it all, standards
[20:48] <FredGB> And people say wireless is the wave of the future.
[20:48] <JaniceUS> and is it?
[20:48] <Ronni> Actually some of the wireless is getting set to standards :)
[20:48] <Hank> I think your point about accessibility is a good one though Fred ... that might be the logical offshoot -- otherwise, most of wireless is descended from traditional client server stuff it's the presentation, device support and integration into the larger project framework that's specific
[20:48] <Ronni> I think wireless will be one major component but its the snyc between handhelds and desktops that will be the killer if folks don't find a way to real time control it
[20:49] *** Chet has quit IRC (Bye.)
[20:49] <glenn> what about the blue tooth devices
[20:50] <Hank> Bluetooth still seems like the standard without an application ... is anyone using it yet?
[20:50] <Hank> 802.11b seems like the safe bet
[20:50] <FredGB> I haven't even heard of it.
[20:50] <Ronni> We have one but.... they are not as great as they were thought to be....
[20:50] <JaniceUS> What is it?
[20:51] <April_023> Still alot of work to be done on it.
[20:51] <glenn> all i have read is that many manufacturers are not investing as much as they were and this is preventing the uptake
[20:52] <glenn> does any one know where I can source opentv source code or examples
[20:53] <Hank> try freshmeat.net
[20:53] <Ronni> I think there was a German site that had opensource OpenTV for Linux
[20:54] <Ronni> but I stumbled on that a while back
[20:54] <FredGB> You could try doing a Google search glenn.
[20:54] <FredGB> http://www.google.com/
[20:54] <glenn> I did three hours today
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[20:55] <FredGB> Welcome KingGene.
[20:55] <KingGene> hello
[20:55] <glenn> examples are few and far between, though a lot of companies are producing material but not for learning
[20:56] <glenn> There seems to be little relevent info at the w3.org
[20:57] <glenn> on a guild topic, where are the recent logs
[20:57] <glenn> last one seems to be december 2000
[20:57] <FredGB> Not uploaded yet. (Obviously)
[20:58] <FredGB> But I will see about getting the ones I have uploaded soon.
[20:58] <glenn> need a volunteer?
[20:58] <Hank> glenn: http://sourceforge.net/projects/opentv/
[20:58] <FredGB> Promise. :-)
[20:58] <Hank> Alpha stuff, but it's there
[20:59] <FredGB> glenn, you might can try http://www.techtv.com/. They talk Linux all the time. Might have info or links on their site.
[20:59] <Hank> ... as I look more, it's inactive ... though you might contact the coordinators of the project, they might be working elsewhere
[21:00] <glenn> thanks I'll give them a look later
[21:00] <franc> Yeah, I was gonna mention that Dvorak's show (on techtv) had a discussion about that stuff a couple weeks ago, but I coudln't find anything just a few minutes ago.
[21:01] <glenn> I am off to bed now job interview tomorrow so goobye
[21:01] <Hank> 'night Glenn
[21:01] <FredGB> Thanks for coming glenn.
[21:01] <JaniceUS> g'nite glenn; thanks
[21:01] <glenn> nite
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[21:03] <FredGB> Okay, now what can we talk about?
[21:03] <JaniceUS> FredGB?.....
[21:04] <JaniceUS> I don't know if you remember, but last month I had explained a situation to you about our webmaster insisting we use invisible tables with a dot.gif file?
[21:04] <JaniceUS> Do you remember?
[21:04] <FredGB> Fred (my name) + I'm on the Governing Board of HWG.
[21:04] <FredGB> Yes Janice. I thought it was a little weird, and redundant.
[21:05] <JaniceUS> Well, I asked her about it. The question to her was stated: what advantages does this give me over just using invisible tables?...
[21:05] <JaniceUS> Her answer was  this: "The dot.gif helps to force/hold the table cells open at the width they should be, allowing for precise placement. If you use just the...
[21:06] <JaniceUS> ...standard HTML width and height attributes, you'll find that it doesn't always work in some browsers...etc.
[21:06] <JaniceUS> Does that clarify it for you? I personally found that the dot.gif didn't work for my pages. I'm taking my chances.
[21:07] <FredGB> That is right, but it's really older browsers that won't recognize HEIGHT or WIDTH in a table cell.
[21:07] <FredGB> I just she's just REAL careful. :-)
[21:07] <Frani> and as height is not valid, the dot.gif will allow you to keep that heigth
[21:08] <Frani> and validate the page
[21:08] <FredGB> Height is valid. At least 3.2.
[21:08] <JaniceUS> Yeah, I think so, too. However, I ran my site through Bobby and it passed beautifully on the level 1 issues. However, it DID come back to me on Level II or III about this very issue.
[21:08] <FredGB> And up.
[21:08] <JaniceUS> Yes.
[21:09] <FredGB> Yeah Janice. Like I said at the time. Tables are not recommended for accessibility.
[21:09] <JaniceUS> We had also discussed layers versus tables. She said NO to layers; OK to tables (now); and to try to avoid frames.
[21:10] <JaniceUS> I still have that E-mail address you gave me. I haven't had time to pursue, but I think I'm going to ask the lady to which you referred me to clarify......
[21:10] <FredGB> You mean Kynn?
[21:10] <JaniceUS> Yes.
[21:10] <FredGB> Kynn is a he. :-)
[21:10] <JaniceUS> Sorry. You're right.
[21:11] <JaniceUS> well, you would be   :)
[21:11] <JaniceUS> Anyway, I'm going to ask Kynn for a final decision if he can make one. She maintains W3C has cleared tables as an alternative to frames, but layers aren't going to work.
[21:11] <FredGB> That's what he gets for spelling his name weird. :-)
[21:11] <JaniceUS> Just a little FYI for those who might care.
[21:11] <JaniceUS> My real name is spelled weird, too. Bless him.
[21:12] <JaniceUS> Anyway, that's the scoop. Just wanted to follow up with you.
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[21:13] <FredGB> She might be in an either/or situation.
[21:13] <FredGB> right, that is.
[21:13] <Frani> Actually, no, height is not a valid attribute for table tags...
[21:13] <JaniceUS> OH, I found it. Her minimum acceptable standards are: 14.4Kbps for modems, IE 5.x thru 4.x and Netscape 6.x thru 4.x at least. Sometimes she tests in Netscape 3.0 as well.
[21:13] <FredGB> I'm leaving out words.
[21:13] <FredGB> 4.x of either will do height.
[21:14] <Frani> well, I just ran a test thruough the validator and no, it gives back an eror
[21:14] <Frani> it's only valid in the TD tag
[21:15] <JaniceUS> See why I'm confused?
[21:15] <Frani> sorry, TR tag
[21:15] <JaniceUS> Thans, Frani.
[21:16] <Frani> LOL it's valid in the TD tag, not table or tr
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[21:16] <FredGB> Oh yeah. That's what I was thinking. But she could still control the dimensions that way, without loading an otherwise useless image.
[21:17] <JaniceUS> And that's what I did. I actually created my template as an invisible table, and then nested another table within. Didn't use her 1-pixel dot.gif for a placeholder at all. Worked like a charm.
[21:17] <JaniceUS> I think it did anyway.
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[21:20] <FredGB> Ooops. We fried poor Janice's brain. :-)
[21:20] <Hank> Oops we lost the only one talking
[21:20] <Hank> other than you Fred
[21:20] * Frani didn't mean to scare her away... (back to lurk mode)
[21:21] <Hank> It would be nice to see the single-pixel gif go the way of the dodo once and for all
[21:21] <FredGB> Frani's been talking. Correcting my mistake.
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[21:21] <Hank> I missed that ... I've been reading email
[21:21] <Hank> ... sorry:)
[21:21] <FredGB> Re hi Janice.
[21:21] <JaniceUS> I kinda left the room for a minute. What did I miss?
[21:21] <Quail> hehehe
[21:21] <FredGB> Nothing.
[21:21] <Frani> sometimes that gif is a big help if you need to degrade for older browsers, though
[21:21] <Hank> I just received my 74th copy of SirCam ...
[21:22] <JaniceUS> OK. I'm done with my subject. Anyone else have anything interesting? I've only got a few minutes left to watch and learn...
[21:22] <FredGB> And they said it was slowing down.
[21:22] <JaniceUS> and I've just learned NOT to let Hank send me E-mail....
[21:22] <JaniceUS> :)
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[21:23] <FredGB> I've only two at my personal e-mail, which is sad in a way. :-(
[21:23] <Hank> No it means you have smart friends:)
[21:23] <JaniceUS> exactly.
[21:23] <FredGB> Nah, it couldn't be that. ;-)
[21:25] <FredGB> Hey, that's a topic we could talk about: What should be done to the person who created this thing??
[21:25] <JaniceUS> ...we have a place of torture for people like that....problem is, they're begging to get in the door.... LOL
[21:26] <Hank> That's an interesting topic Fred ...
[21:26] <FredGB> Why are they begging to get in Janice?
[21:26] <Hank> Not just the creator, but there has been the typical knee jerk reaction about responsibility in general
[21:26] <JaniceUS> Those sickos like it! (Or we're worse sickos for creating it!) LOL LOL
[21:27] <Hank> ... MS taking lots of abuse for being the delivery vehicle for most of these things
[21:27] <Hank> ... outlook I mean...
[21:27] <FredGB> Well, Outlook is a piece of junk. :-)
[21:27] <Hank> yet it's users demanding features without regard for safety that drive MS to do what they do
[21:27] <JaniceUS> yup - and the latest stuff on Win2000 is kinda scary, too.
[21:27] <JaniceUS> I agree, Hank.
[21:27] <FredGB> True.
[21:28] <Hank> yet we've had how many email virus' the last year?  ... have people learned not to open attachments? ... looks like not
[21:28] <JaniceUS> Plus MS is SO greedy they don't bother to ALPHA TEST within their own realm before letting users BETA TEST. Cuts costs, you know. Now, I wonder in reality what their screwups are costing them?
[21:28] <Frani> even my 72 year-old mom knows not to touch attachments...
[21:29] <Hank> Slowly it appears to be reputation -- IIS is a security sieve and Outlook speaks for itself
[21:29] <JaniceUS> We have a standard policy (my friends and I). We have a code word we use plus the words "see attached" -- if codeword is missing, I scan the attachment. And if I don't know sender, bye-bye.
[21:29] <FredGB> But you've got to remember, a lot of these virus make it look like the message is from someone you know.
[21:29] <FredGB> So you can excuse it a little.
[21:29] <Frani> I just scan it all, have some friends who have no idea what a virus scanner is LOL
[21:30] <FredGB> Not wholly, but a little.
[21:30] <JaniceUS> TRUE. Look at HAHAHA. I unfortunately have to be responsible for my entire department's network. They update DAT files every  2 hours. Period. The users don't even know it's happening. They just know if they get a message of any kind, stop. Call. Don't touch the keyboard.
[21:31] <JaniceUS> Of course, my method depends on our IT department, which fortunately has a body dedicated to virus prevention. We recently had server viruses and some of our web pages have been destroyed.
[21:32] <FredGB> And that reminds me of the Code Red virus from last week.
[21:32] <JaniceUS> Well, folks, gotta go. Kiddo is screaming MOM, I haven't gotten my 30 minutes on the PC yet! Have a good night all.....maybe next time, I'll have some intelligent questions!
[21:32] <Frani> nite Janice
[21:32] <Hank> Night janice ... I just handled the DAD call ... I know what you've got:)
[21:32] <Quail> good night Janice..
[21:33] <JaniceUS> It was Code Red, Fred. No joke on that one. It's a killer. And it happened to hit the server with our finely detailed maps on them.
[21:33] <JaniceUS> Nite all......
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[21:33] <FredGB> It exploited a known security hole in MS II, which was patched over a month before, but a bunch of people never bothered to update their software.
[21:33] <Hank> Bunch is an understatement
[21:33] <Hank> ... and that would lead to the responsibility of sysadmins
[21:34] <Hank> to keep current on stuff ... which this obviously shows they arent
[21:34] <FredGB> Who should better.
[21:34] <FredGB> know.
[21:35] <Hank> The problem is that there are more 3133t3 d00dz that subscribe to bugtraq than sysadmins ... sad but true
[21:36] <Hank> the bsd telnetd exploit has been making the rounds the last few days as well, but fortunately the unix crowd takes this stuff a little more seriously as a group than the windows set
[21:37] <FredGB> Which is weird since unix is open source.
[21:37] <FredGB> You'd think it would be wide open.
[21:37] <Chris_H> No - UNIX is a little more complex than Windows
[21:38] <FredGB> But it isn't.
[21:38] <Chris_H> It means any idiot can install a windows program and blindly trust that it is OK
[21:38] <Hank> except for all the default passwords ... MSSQL server anyone?:)
[21:39] <Chris_H> Not me - I'm one of the idiots that relies on blind trust :-)
[21:39] <Hank> I agree though a newbie doing a kitchen sink install of linux is in for a world of hurt if they put that box on the net
[21:40] <Chris_H> Yes but you have to consider the volume - there are a greater number of Windows newbies
[21:40] <Quail> I wouldn't agree on the blind trust thing.. I've done enough installs that have completely screwed things..
[21:40] <Chris_H> or worse still, those that think they no longer are newbies just because their installation worked.
[21:40] <Hank> that's true
[21:41] <Chris_H> BRB - if I don't get lunch now I'll miss out again.
[21:41] <FredGB> Again?
[21:41] <Hank> ahh yes, lunch time ...
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[21:42] <Hank> Hi Alex
[21:42] <FredGB> Hello Alex.
[21:42] *** Alex has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[21:42] <Hank> Bye Alex
[21:42] <FredGB> Goodbye Alex.
[21:43] <Hank> So what do we do with the virus authors?
[21:43] <FredGB> Hangin, I say hangin' is too for those people!!
[21:43] <Quail> torture is good..
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[21:43] <Hank> WB Alex
[21:44] <FredGB> Re hi Alex.
[21:44] <Frani> maybe make them sit and reinstall everything on a computer, over and over and over...
[21:44] <Quail> make them install those windows updates that make you reboot after each one..
[21:44] <Frani> Hi Alex
[21:44] <Hank> ... consider that many, though not all are kids -- it's computer vandalism more than anything
[21:45] *** Alex has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[21:45] <Frani> yes, and when they get all finished, reformat
[21:45] <Hank> Alex needs a new IRC client:)
[21:45] <FredGB> Maybe he's using the java client.
[21:45] <Hank> hehe
[21:46] <franc> Ya know, vandals are often made to clean up their vandalism.  Seems to me like a fitting punishment.
[21:46] <FredGB> I will say this though: our current java client is MUCH better than the one we used to have.
[21:47] <Hank> for may of these wide spread worms/viri, that would be a life sentence
[21:47] <Quail> I still like the torture idea..
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[21:47] <Frani> bamboo shoots under the fingernails, Quail? LOL
[21:47] <Quail> ooh.. sounds good to me...
[21:47] <franc> Yeah, torture is quite appealing
[21:47] <FredGB> Deport them to Afghanistan, where they've outlawed the internet.
[21:48] <Frani> have they really?
[21:48] <Hank> Listening to Barney theme song over and over .... oops, that's being a parent
[21:48] <Frani> hahaha
[21:48] <Hank> Yep
[21:48] * Frani is glad Barney came after her son was too old for that stuff...
[21:48] <Hank> Corrupts impressionable youth
[21:49] <Hank> yeah, but you probably had the ninja turtles and the power rangers
[21:49] <Hank> ... even trade in my book
[21:49] <Frani> Yeah, but they didn't sing in goofy voices
[21:50] <FredGB> Anybody ever see the parody they did of Barney on Animaniacs?
[21:50] <Hank> Nope.  Good?
[21:50] <FredGB> Hilarious.
[21:50] <Quail> yes.. that was a good one..
[21:50] <franc> It was wonderful!
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[21:50] <Hank> I could do without the tele-tubbies too
[21:50] <Frani> I have never seen them
[21:50] <Quail> definitely!! my nephew watches them..
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[21:51] <Alex> hi folks
[21:51] <Frani> Should we chain Alex to a chair this time?
[21:51] <FredGB> I admire your resolve Alex.
[21:51] <Hank> Alex!!!!!!!!!!
[21:51] *** Alex has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[21:51] <Quail> oh no!
[21:51] <Hank> oh well
[21:52] <Hank> I was just about to give him a persistance award:)
[21:52] * franc sings the anvil song
[21:52] *** Alex has joined #townhall
[21:52] <Hank> Is he here? ...
[21:52] <FredGB> Is that the regular anvil song, or the national anthem of Anvilania?
[21:52] *** Alex has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[21:53] <Hank> If it's the barney song it's the advil song:)
[21:53] *** Alex has joined #townhall
[21:53] <FredGB> Alex, how are you connecting?
[21:54] <Alex> hi folks
[21:54] <franc> The Warners introduced "Baloney" to the anvil song.  In the theme of the anthem of Avilania, Baloney had anvils dropped on him regularly.
[21:54] <FredGB> Baloney wasn't in Anvilania.
[21:55] <FredGB> Perry Como was, but not Baloney.
[21:55] <franc> No, but the same music, I thought.
[21:55] <Alex> hi folks
[21:55] <Hank> Hi !
[21:55] <Frani> Hi Alex :)
[21:55] <Hank> is using the java thingy ... 
[21:55] <FredGB> First thing I thought of when Perry died. the Anvilania song. Isn't that terrible?
[21:56] <franc> Probably.
[21:56] <Alex> hey....
[21:56] <Chris_H> Hi Alex
[21:57] <FredGB> Alex, if you have any questions or comments, just sing out.
[21:57] <Alex> hey guys
[21:57] <FredGB> As you can tell, there's no set topics here. :-)
[21:57] <Alex> I am using the guils client fred
[21:57] <Hank> Alex says that he can only see the system messages, not any of us in the room ... though he and I can talk in a private message ... anyone know that might be
[21:57] <FredGB> I figured that. Gonna have to fix that thing.
[21:58] <Alex> hi frani
[21:58] <Alex> my client is not giving me a good run
[21:58] <FredGB> I don't know. Sounds like he's not connected completely.
[21:59] <Chris_H> That's not a nice thing to say about Alex :-)
[21:59] <Alex> hi chris
[21:59] <FredGB> Are you seeing us now?
[21:59] <Alex> yea i want to know what guild classes should i take to get into some freelance design
[21:59] <franc> I was having trouble determining if I'd actually joined the channel, with the java client earlier.
[21:59] <Alex> i am gonna take html 1 and 2
[22:00] <FredGB> Good.
[22:00] <FredGB> I think it's a safe bet to sayy you might want to take a CSS class after those.
[22:01] <Frani> Yes, and maybe JavaScript
[22:01] <franc> CSS is great, but not well supported yet.  It's still good to know, though.
[22:02] <Hank> I think everyone should learn PHP
[22:02] <Hank> ... but I'm biased:)
[22:02] <Chris_H> What are your interests Alex?  Graphic design, programming, databases?
[22:02] <Frani> The Accessibility course is one I recommend to students
[22:03] <FredGB> If you want to learn how to create your own graphics, we have a Paint Shop Pro class. And yeah, accessibility is almost a must.
[22:03] <Hank> HTML I II, CSS, JS and Accessibility should keep you busy for a couple months:)
[22:03] <FredGB> After that, it's up to you just how deep you want to get into this. :-)
[22:03] *** Alex has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
[22:04] <Hank> ... and it gets pretty deep:)
[22:05] <Hank> SirCam 75 just arrived...
[22:05] <FredGB> And getting deeper all the time.
[22:06] <FredGB> Are you going for a record?
[22:06] <Frani> LOL just got it for the Nth time here, to
[22:06] <FredGB> Got any of the spanish versions?
[22:06] <Hank> I've not seen Spanish ... 
[22:06] <Frani> Yes, several went into my delete folder
[22:06] <franc> Our tech support account at work is getting about a hundred a day still.  That's down from a few thousand.  They're working on a filter.
[22:06] <Quail> mm.. I still haven't gotten any..
[22:07] <FredGB> The Guild corporate address got one with a spanish Subject line, but english text.
[22:07] <Hank> There are a couple filters out there already ... I've got a procmail one and a snort one ... they could be adapted pretty easily
[22:07] <Frani> Yes, I am getting them from sites I admin to
[22:08] *** Chris_H has left #townhall (Chris_H.)
[22:08] *** Chris_H has joined #townhall
[22:09] <franc> They're using outlook, and don't really know what they're doing. :)
[22:09] <Hank> We thought lunch was over Chris:)
[22:09] <Chris_H> No - eating at my desk :-)
[22:09] <FredGB> Yeah, what is for lunch? :-)
[22:09] <Hank> It's better to screen it out at the mail server level rather than depend on the client
[22:09] <Quail> I agree.. 
[22:10] <Chris_H> Char kwai teow
[22:10] <FredGB> What is that in english? :-)
[22:10] <Hank> OK, I'll bite -- in english
[22:10] <FredGB> Said it first.
[22:10] <Chris_H> Actually, by the taste of it, it's more like a Beef Char Hor Fun
[22:10] <Hank> ... ok which is what? ... charred cat?
[22:11] <franc> That'd be the new plan.  They'll play with it, while I laugh at 'em. :)
[22:11] <Chris_H> Stir fried beef, rice noodles, bean shoots, onion
[22:11] <Chris_H> It SHOULD also have chilli
[22:11] <Hank> alas you can never have too much chile ... or chilli
[22:12] <FredGB> I can. That's why I'm on Prilosec everyday.
[22:12] <Hank> Ahh, well there are exceptions
[22:13] <Hank> I'm on the other end ... 'I though you said this was hot' ... is my line
[22:13] <franc> That sounds good.  I shouldn't get hungry this late, though.  Being able to get too much chilli is terrible.
[22:13] <Hank> s/though/thought
[22:14] <Hank> So anything more to yak about as we approach the 2 hour mark?
[22:15] <FredGB> Are there any topics left? We've covered a bunch.
[22:15] <Hank> looks like not ...
[22:15] <FredGB> Anybody here on the U.S. east coast?
[22:15] * Frani is, MD
[22:16] * Quail is west coast
[22:16] <Hank> Midwest
[22:16] <FredGB> Did you see or hear the big fireball from earlier this week?
[22:16] <Frani> I missed it, was in cooking dinner.
[22:16] <Frani> It hit about a 2 hour drive from me
[22:16] <Hank> I heard about it ... singed corn field ... meteor of some kind right?
[22:17] <FredGB> Probably, but they're not sure yet.
[22:18] * franc yawns
[22:18] <franc> G'night!
[22:18] *** franc has quit IRC
[22:18] <Hank> night franc
[22:18] <Hank> too late
[22:18] <Frani> nite franc
[22:19] <Chris_H> looks like we've exhaused all possibilities here
[22:19] <Hank> pretty much 
[22:19] <FredGB> At least for this month.
[22:19] <FredGB> Good meeting though.
[22:19] * Frani waves good bye
[22:19] <Hank> yep ... lot of ground covered
[22:19] <FredGB> And we did talk some html.
[22:19] <Hank> by Frani
[22:19] <Hank> and a little WAP
[22:19] <FredGB> Night frani
[22:20] <Hank> and single-pixel gif
[22:20] *** Frani has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[22:20] <Quail> I suppose I should be off too.. so many things to do tonight..  : )
[22:20] *** Quail has quit IRC
[22:20] <Hank> will Joe be back to turn out the lights?
[22:20] <FredGB> Shall we wrap it up then?
[22:20] <FredGB> I guess.
[22:21] <Hank> seems like a wrap then
[22:21] <FredGB> Thanks for coming Hank.
[22:21] <FredGB> And Chris.
[22:21] <Hank> Hey these are fun
[22:21] <Hank> I don't IRC much anymore
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[22:21] <FredGB> Yeah, when people show up.
[22:21] <Hank> ... ok, at all really
[22:22] <FredGB> Hi Alex.
[22:22] <FredGB> Trying again.
[22:22] <FredGB> Me either Hank.
[22:23] <Hank> I'm off ... see you tuesday? ... if not email before.
[22:23] <FredGB> Okay.
[22:23] *** Hank has quit IRC (.BitchX. Official WWW Site -- http://www.bitchx.com.)
[22:23] <Alex> hello
[22:23] <Alex> i am goign to download a new client
[22:24] <FredGB> I'm sorry about the java thing.
[22:26] <Alex> hang on guys gotta make this download before you all splurt and leave
[22:27] <FredGB> Okay.
[22:28] <Alex> hi fred
[22:29] <Alex> yea still trying
[22:43] *** Alex has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
[22:44] <FredGB> I think Alex may be gone for good this time.
[22:45] *** Alex has joined #townhall
[22:46] <FredGB> Still the java, or vIRC this time?
[22:48] *** Alex has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
[22:49] *** Alex has joined #townhall
[22:52] *** Alex has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
[22:54] <FredGB> Well, I'm outta here. See you later Chris.

End of meeting.