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HTML Writers Guild

Guild Operations

Events

990624 Meeting

Town Hall Meeting - 24 July 1999

(What follows is a log of the meeting, automatically generated by the eShare software.)

Kynn	Just had to make sure that my logging was working correctly. It is _now_.
Teresa	So what is going on here?
Carole	Good!
Carole	Getting ready to have an official meeting!
Teresa	I have chronic tabitis!!!! It is left over from ICQ
Carole	LOL
Kynn	Tabitis?
FredGB	I have ICQ, but I haven't caught that bug yet.
Teresa	TAB/ENTER!!!
Teresa	If you don't have ICQ, you wouldn't know
Carole	By the Way, got the other code, thanks, Teresa. :)
Kynn	I have ICQ, I don't have a tab enter thing though :)
Kynn	Fred, you're the host, whenever you feel like starting and giving an official welcome, be my guest. :)
Kynn	Er...be my host?
Carole	LOL
FredGB	Okiely Dokiely.
FredGB	I want to welcome everyone, especially our first time visitors...
FredGB	We hold these meetings each month so the members can come and meet the GB (those who attend)...
*** Rich has joined #townhall
Carole	Welcome Rich
Rich	Hi
FredGB	and can ask questions about what's going on with the Guild, maybe sound off on issues, or just chew the fat.
FredGB	Hi Rich.
Rich	Hi, Fred
Carole	No adgenda tonite?
FredGB	None that I'm aware of. I'm a very informal host.
marlini	has anyone ever taken an online course from the guild?
Carole	YES!!!
FredGB	That's why I don't do this very often.
Teresa	Yes...but had to much going on, to get much out ofit...will next time though!
Kynn	Open agenda, the meetings are for the members, not for the GB to dictate what we talk about. :) We get LOTS of time to run the show!
FredGB	:-)
marlini	Was it good? did you learn a lot?
Rich	I taught one ...
Kynn	Me too, Rich!
Rich	I thought it was good, and I learned a lot.
*** AlexG has joined #townhall
marlini	very cool, which one?
Kynn	Welcome AlexG!
Carole	Is this the Rich from Perl?
Rich	Yep
FredGB	Welcome AlexG.
Kynn	My wife took Rich's class, she learned a lot! Which is good because now I don't have to do all the Perl scripting anymore!
Carole	I'm still catching up. :) Did you get my Email?
Rich	Yes, I did.
marlini	ic
Carole	Classes are mostly really quite good.
Kynn	If anyone wants to give a critical review of the classes and say that mine sucks or something, feel free, I'll pretend I'm not here. :)
Teresa	I wouldn't know
Rich	It's difficult to tell how people are doing in class - I taught college algebra for several years, and it is good to see faces.
FredGB	Why "mostly" Carole? Did you have a bad class experience?
Carole	Critical Review of KYNN, Universal Accessibility, Well, if you wanna get addicted, take his class. :)
marlini	i will probably try one sometime in the future
Carole	Yes, Fred. Sad to say, Ann's class DHTML was no class at all, just assignments and
Kynn	Carole, my sig currently says "catch the web accessibility meme!", I think it's like a disease, once you understand the web you want to pass it on
Carole	atta-boys, no instruction whatsoever. Could have gotten more from the book alone.
Carole	Yeah, Kynn, it's a great disease, and you have much to do with it!!!
FredGB	I see.
Kynn	Well, we each have different approaches, I've heard some good things about Ann's class too. That's one neat thing, the instructor's personalities come through -- each of us has a different approach.
AlexG	Hmmm, I'm in one of Ann's classes now! I hope it's better.
Kynn	And not every approach works for everyone. Carole, of course, is kissing up to me. :)
marlini	looks like I opened a can of worms here......heheheh
Kynn	I highly recommend Marshall Jansen's class if you want to learn Javascript. He's both a friend of mine and a dedicated teacher.
*** Teresa has quit IRC (Bye.)
Carole	Unfortunately, many students have been sending email to me complaining about many of her classes, so don't know what to say. You might check the Futures forum regarding some of their criticisms.
*** Teresa has joined #townhall
Teresa	seemed pretty interesting, reading the posting and the classes
Kynn	I'll do that, I haven't had time lately, I wonder if they're criticizing me. :)
Carole	I recommend Marshall's class too. Wish he'd get a JavaScript II class going. I intend to be his first student! No, Kynn, your name was not mentioned. :)
Carole	RE classes, Rich, you should get a PERL II class going as well, much interest in it, as well.
Kynn	Advanced classes are always so much harder to pull off right -- the right balance of "advanced" is _really_ hard to do!
Rich	What would be covered in a Perl II class, in your opinion.
marlini	is perl difficult to learn if you don't have a programming background?
*** AlexG has quit IRC (Bye.)
Carole	Hhrumph, I have some thoughts on that!
Kynn	Rich, BTW, did you get my email about books? I didn't hear a response.
Rich	I got the email. I've been a little busy, but I do want to do that.
Carole	More complexity, detail, expansion on Regular Expressions, etc.
Kynn	Okay, believe me, I understand about being busy!
Carole	LOL
Dizzy	I don't think it's too hard marlini, that's the first kind of "programming" I started learning about a year ago.
marlini	oh good, i only know html now
Kynn	Marlini, I don't have a good answer because I have a programming background myself.
marlini	i c
*** Teresa has quit IRC (Leaving the chat page..)
Carole	It's pretty straight forward, and Rich is truly the "genius" others have told me he is. :)
Rich	Wow.
Kynn	So when I learned Perl it was easy for me, because Perl is a very good "second language", but that doesn't mean it's a bad "first" either.
marlini	good carole, i will give it a try soon
Kynn	Notice how Carole is praising everyone who's here! I told you she sucks up! :)
marlini	awww c'mon, maybe she's just being nice :-)
Carole	OK Kynn, You're in SERIOUS trouble now!!! That was supposed to be a secret!
Rich	I'd like to think that she's being brutally honest!
Rich	:-)
Kynn	Heh. Maybe I'll edit the logs though just in case Ann reads 'em. :)
Carole	I try.
marlini	lol ( rich's head is now too big for the room):-))
Kynn	To answer the previous question about the logs, I need to hunt them down (they're on my hard drive) and post the transcripts of previous town hall meetings.
Carole	Don't you DARE. I think she knows my feelings.
Kynn	By the way, has anyone noticed that I reorganized the links on the HWG homepage recently?
Carole	Yes, the HWG pages are sorely out of date. Who, other than you maintains them?
Rich	Dozens of people.
Carole	Yup!
Kynn	Depends on the page in question, Carole.
Carole	I also noticed that they are HTML 4.0 now, too.
Dizzy	I don't know about out of date, I found this meeting, so it can't be too old!
Carole	I could help, Kynn. :)
Kynn	List pages are maintained by the list guides; resources by the resources team; AWARE site by me; classes pages by the classes management, etc.
FredGB	Yeah Dizzy, but before the update, we still had the March meeting listed on interact.hwg.org.
Kynn	Good point, Fred. I decided that the best thing to do regarding that was to take out the date reference entirely!
Kynn	One less thing to have to maintain each month. :)
FredGB	Course we ended up not having an April meeting anyway, due to server trouble.
Kynn	I think it was a May meeting we didn't have -- it's June today, Fred!
marlini	i must go now, maybe we'll talk again next time, nice to meet you all. bye
Carole	A suggestion, not original, but one that crossed my mind some time ago, and someone else voiced recently. We need to post the class schedules for several months out as it makes it difficult for planning. That's how I ended up taking 3 classes at the same time. I was afraid I'd have to wait a year.
*** marlini has quit IRC (Bye.)
Dizzy	bye marlini
FredGB	Calendar watcher!
*** HWGmember has joined #townhall
Carole	It was the May meeting that died. I was at the April meeting. :)
HWGmember	back
Kynn	Yep, good point, Carole! In faaaaaact...
Kynn	The newsletter that's going out this weekend says "due to popular demand, we are now scheduling classes further in advance!"
Kynn	If you look at http://www.hwg.org/services/classes/ you'll see courses scheduled until the end of the year and beyond!
*** Rich has quit IRC (Bye.)
FredGB	So now you can start saving your pennies.
Kynn	The reason we hadn't done this before is because of a limitation in the signup code -- originally it was set so you could only have one session of a given course (e.g. D201) "enrollable" at a time.
FredGB	:-)
Carole	Hurray for us. That will definitely improve our student registration and maybe reduce the size of classes if they know when the next class will be available.
*** Rich has joined #townhall
Rich	Ack
Kynn	We got our programmer to change this so that now we can schedule and sign up for classes further in advance, and it also helps students plot out their "study course"
Rich	Ack
Kynn	Bad net, Rich?
Dizzy	hair ball, Rich?
FredGB	Maybe the java is acting up, since Teresa keeps getting bumped?
Carole	I still want to teach the Designing class. I do have a degree from a prestigious Art School (Art Institute).
HWGmember	NO,
FredGB	I'm on IRC.
HWGmember	Teresa keeps getting booted, because she hits TAB and then ENTER!!!
HWGmember	and I am here to tell you that is NOT the thing to do!
FredGB	Oh yeah, ICQ thingie. :-)
Kynn	Oh, hi Teresa!
HWGmember	yep!
Kynn	You didn't change your name from the default so I didn't recognize you :)
Carole	I'm not getting booted. Must be a User thingie. :)
HWGmember	bad habit of using the tab key all the time
Rich	Not sure what happened there.
Dizzy	where do you "tab" in icq? the direct chat part? (I don't use that much)
HWGmember	with everything!!! instead of using the cursor to enter, i just hit tab to get to the enter key and then hit return...which is fine, except in Java chat!
FredGB	Returning to classes for the moment, are there any we don't offer that you'd like us to?
Carole	Careful with the TAB key, Teresa.
Kynn	I think Teresa is saying that when she's typing stuff in the input box, she moves to the next control with TAB, which takes her to the 'send' button, and then hits return. Rather than using a mouse to click on send.
HWGmember	yep!!!
Kynn	If she does that here, the 'next control' on the Java applet (on http://interact.hwg.org/) is the "CLOSE" button!
HWGmember	I know!!! but old habits die hard
FredGB	You know you can just hit enter. That's what I used to do.
HWGmember	I don't know...I really liked the java script and I would like to learn perl as well, but need more hours in the day
Dizzy	oooh, i get it.
Carole	I think we should have a very basic class in terminology so that people will have those understood before taking any specific classes.
Kynn	I'll tell Marshall that you all love him. :)
Carole	WE DO!
FredGB	Who Marshall?
HWGmember	Are there different levels of html classes??
Carole	And if anyone can get us a 36 hour day, I'd be your slave forever.
HWGmember	for sure!
Kynn	Carole, I was thinking of that, maybe a free 2 week 'intro to the HWG classes' classes, maybe $5 for the intro class just so we can hire someone to teach it :)
Carole	No, but there otta be.
Carole	Me, Kynn, Me. :)
Carole	I do love teaching soooo.
HWGmember	because I am pretty good at basic HTML, but would like to be more comfortable with forms....I always have to cut and paste code...because I can never remember it
Kynn	It depends on what you mean by different levels. There are some classes that require more knowledge -- for example, I don't teach basic web design in D201.
Kynn	The DHTML class assumes you know something about HTML, CSS, and Javascript; the CSS class assumes you know basic web design; etc.
HWGmember	oh, ok...
HWGmember	i will have to check out CSS
HWGmember	i understand very little about it
FredGB	I'm just learning CSS myself.
Carole	The forms things, etc would be a great "advanced class"
HWGmember	yes....uses for forms, and different methods and design aspects
Kynn	One thing we want to do in the future is "advanced classes" -- it's also been waiting on the programming.
Kynn	Right now the current sign-up scripts only allow for one "price" for all classes. This is limiting on the "advanced" classes.
*** Carole1 has joined #townhall
Kynn	Because theoretically there would be fewer people taking an "advanced" class than an "intro" class, it's how things work.
HWGmember	I have a hard time understanding that...seems there would be fewer beginners in an organization like this...
Kynn	So to still be profitable for the Guild and the teacher to actually run the class, we would need somewhat higher rates for the classes with fewer people in them
Carole1	I got kicked out! Now I am two.
Kynn	Actually, Teresa, because the Guild is an educational organization, we get a LOT of people who are at the beginner stage.
Dizzy	My friend that told me about the Guild pointed out to the stuff you say about being for everyone..so maybe more beginners feel comfortable here.
HWGmember	oh...
FredGB	You've been cloned Carole. :-)
Kynn	Or maybe not "beginner", but they're looking to learn new skills.
Kynn	Such as learning CSS, Perl, ASP, XML, Javascript, or whatever.
*** Carole has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
FredGB	I didn't know anything when I joined.
Kynn	And Fred STILL doesn't know anything!
Carole1	That beginner thing is how I joined, too. The Mentor program interested me, but never got a response. :(
Kynn	hides
HWGmember	Which mentor program?
FredGB	No need to hide Kynn. In a way, you're right. :-)
Carole1	The one that just got killed!!!
FredGB	It wasn't killed, it died from lack of interest.
Carole1	Hmmm, so nobody answered my request 4 years ago and it just got killed?
Kynn	Basically the mentor program had a lot of conceptual problems -- especially since the HWG couldn't guarantee a quality mentor for each person who wanted one!
Kynn	Four years ago? I think it was Darren who is no longer a GBer and hasn't been one for years who was running the mentor program then. :)
* HWGmember has quit IRC (Bye.) * HWGmember has joined #townhall
Kynn	Uh oh! Teresa hit TAB!
Carole1	Well, now that everyone is getting so savvy, we should reinvestigate the program?
HWGmember	you are right, about that!!
HWGmember	oops
Carole1	Are you saying he
FredGB	We still have the same problems Carole.
Kynn	Not really, Carole. If you want I can go into more of the reasons for it; basically there's a big gulf of misunderstanding about what the program was supposed to be.
Carole1	's a quitter, sorry I hit the return key. :)
Kynn	In fact I'm not even sure it's practical as we understand a "mentor" program without a HUGE investment of work and even then the investiture of resources are hard to justify.
Carole1	Well, my thoughts are these. Now that we are beginning to acquire more knowledgeable members, we could rethink the program in terms of the different aspects, like JS mentors, Perl mentors, CSS mentors, etc
Kynn	That's the chief thing that the Governing Board has to look at -- is this program the best way to serve this need using the Guild's limited resources (people, time, money)? In this case, the mentor program wasn't meeting the needs and wasn't worth the efforts.
Kynn	Okay, so we've grouped people. Now what? What do we expect of the mentors? Free, unlimited consulting to their apprentices? That's what some (most?) apprentices have expected.
Carole1	One thing that I like that seems to be working is the number of specialized digests.
FredGB	You mean the mailing list digest?
Carole1	No, Kynn, we get the apprentices through steps of knowledge then turn them into mentors.
FredGB	That was a requirement under the old program. Apprentices were expected to become mentors afterwards.
Carole1	Yes, Fred. I have joined most of them and find many questions answered that I, too, was going to ask, or discovered later were useful. I save them all.
Kynn	What if someone wants to be an apprentice but they have no interest in being a mentor?
FredGB	But from what I understand, few if any were doing that.
Kynn	How does someone go from being an apprentice to being a mentor? Who determines when they have "passed the mark"?
Kynn	I'm not asking you to answer all these questions as much as I'm pointing out the factors that led the GB to decide it wasn't a viable program.
FredGB	All that, and a basic shortage of mentors too.
*** Carole1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
Kynn	Well there goes our good explanation. :)
Kynn	Yeah, even beyond the "questions", there was just a lack of people who wanted to be mentors.
Kynn	So, Dizzy, what about you, do you have any questions about the Guild and the way things work?
HWGmember	a lot of us that know HTML, have a LOT of projects going on!
Kynn	Exactly, Teresa! Which is why the mentor program didn't work, I think.
HWGmember	we are still a minority....so far
Dizzy	I'm mostly trying to soak it all up. Still figuring out what all is available to me
Kynn	I'll bet it makes you...dizzy
FredGB	Now you should hide. :-)
Kynn	Sorry!
HWGmember	brb
Kynn	So, uh, Rich, how's things?
Rich	Uh ... still here.
Rich	On the phone ... sorry.
Dizzy	cute Kynn :)
Dizzy	Old nickname -- Deserie -- "Dizzy"
Kynn	I'm cute?
Kynn	Ask Fred, he's met me and will probably disagree :)
Dizzy	I don't know, are you? :)
Rich	Grading homework madly, and talking on the phone.
Kynn	That's okay, Rich! You're a busy fellow!
FredGB	Dizzy meant your "attempt" at humor.
FredGB	And no, Kynn isn't cute, not even in a Gay sorta way. :-)
Kynn	Liz thinks I'm cute!!
Dizzy	oh, well, hrm :)
FredGB	And some people think spiders make cute pets. :-)
Kynn	Ew spiders
Kynn	ANYWAY.
Kynn	Anyone ever notice that a lot of female members come to these meetings?
Dizzy	I think women are more "chat about things" people
FredGB	Women are more interested in learning, and interacting. Guys could care less how HWG is doing, or why.
HWGmember	nope...this is my first time
FredGB	I did notice the rest of the GB is AWOL. (And I hope you leave this in the log.)
Dizzy	are they supposed to be here?
FredGB	It's not required.
FredGB	But most of them used to come.
HWGmember	how can people become more involved...My friend told me about mailing lists, but haven't seen any....don't want a HUGE one, but would like to learn more
FredGB	You haven't seen our mailing list page?
HWGmember	No
Dizzy	i saw it! There's a link on the main page
HWGmember	ok...I might have been in a hurry, the last time I was there...let me go look
Kynn	Leanne told me that she couldn't make it tonight because of work stuff. I don't know WHERE Ann is, and Joe is usually busy at this time of night.
HWGmember	what is an assistive web tech??
Kynn	Follow the link and find out! Or I can just tell you.
Kynn	It's technology (such as browsers or input/output devices) used by disabled people to access information on the web.
HWGmember	oh, ok
FredGB	If you don't want a busy list, I would advise not subscribing to "-basics"
Dizzy	I'm on the digest of that list, that makes it a bit easier.
FredGB	Yeah, I forgot the digests.
HWGmember	Ok...yeah, I have found digests to be better, but if you are in a graphics list, it isn't good
Rich	I'm much less likely to actually read stuff in digest form.
FredGB	I'm subbed to almost all the lists.
Dizzy	wow, you must get alot of mail!
FredGB	I get about 200 messages per day.
HWGmember	that is way too much!!! I have a lot of obligations and can't spend that much time reading email!!
Dizzy	use the digests then, HWGmember -- I get just 1 or 2 a day. THey're long, but I can read them in pieces.
FredGB	But I don't read'em all. I look for subjects with interesting items. Otherwise I delete them unread.
*** Chris has joined #townhall
FredGB	Hello Chris.
Chris	Hi Fred
HWGmember	gotta go now, all...got work to do!
Dizzy	bye!
FredGB	Bye Teresa.
Chris	About to ask if I was late or early - guess that answers it!
*** HWGmember has quit IRC (Bye.)
FredGB	So, anything else on anyone's mind?
Kynn	Chris Higgs?
Dizzy	Time for me to go too...nice to meet everyone
FredGB	Goodbye Dizzy.
Kynn	Bye Dizzy!
Kynn	Well I guess this meeting is over, Fred, what do you think?
*** Dizzy has quit IRC (Leaving.)
FredGB	Looks like, since just staff is here (assuming that is Chris Higgs).
FredGB	I count Rich as staff since he's a teacher.
Rich	Thanks.
Rich	Sorry for just lurking.
Rich	Not much to say.
Kynn	Are you a list guide still, Rich?
Rich	Yes, I am.
Rich	-Servers
FredGB	Oh, a double dipper.
Kynn	Oh yeah! I need to get with Aaron to move that.
Rich	Move it where?
Chris	Yep - CH! Just darted outside to get some lunch.
FredGB	Got a shrimp on the barbie?
FredGB	Or is it that wimp Ken. :-)
Chris	Nah - no time for that at present - besides, it's too cold outside!!
Chris	I hate having to scrape ice off the car!
FredGB	Move to Alice Springs. :-)
Chris	That would be nice and warm, but no beach :(
FredGB	Actually, too much beach, not enough water. :-)
Chris	I think it's going to rain soon
FredGB	Rained here today.
Rich	Rained here too.
Chris	Looks like a miserable day in general!! At least it's almost the weekend :P
Rich	We needed it in a BAD way.
FredGB	Well, I think I'm going to go. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I need to make it up tonight.
FredGB	Later you all.
Rich	OK, TTFN.
Chris	If it's all over, then I'll sign off too!
* Rich has quit IRC (Bye.) * FredGB has quit IRC (Leaving.)
Chris	Kynn - I'll contact Jeff shortly
*** Chris has left #townhall (Chris.)

End of meeting.