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HWG IRC Chat log (Jan. 19 1997)
**** Logging Started : Mon Jan 19 20:15:13 EST 1998

> /help
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<FredB> Howdies.
<Vinnie> heya
<MonstA> Hello...
* MonstA nods off...
*** MonstA is now known as Monstzzzz
*** AnnGB (ann(at)70.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net) has joined channel #hwg
*** AnnGB is now known as AnnN
 <FredB> Hello Ann.
<AnnN> hello
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<hwgbot> [Kynn] The Howard Stern of HTML
*** Mode change "+o Kynn" on channel #hwg by hwgbot
 <Vinnie> hehe
 <FredB> Who's Robin then? :-)
 <Vinnie> Kynn, do you have a webpage?
 <Kynn> Sure, it's http://www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn/
 <Vinnie> thx
 <FredB> Got his picture on it and everything.
 <Kynn> Scary, eh?
 <AnnN> Kynn's a scary dude ;)
 <FredB> I won't put mine up. :-)
<FredB> Was this advertised on -ops any? I don't remember seeing anything about it.
 <Vinnie> heheh the kynncam...
<Vinnie> thats a great picture of you on the kynncam...
 *** Signoff: Kynn (Ping timeout for Kynn[206.16.238.108])
*** Kynn (kynn(at)grev.idyllmtn.com) has joined channel #hwg
<hwgbot> [Kynn] The Howard Stern of HTML
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*** Mode change "+o AnnN" on channel #hwg by Kynn
*** Mode change "+o jim" on channel #hwg by Kynn
<Kynn> Anyone else here?
 <FredB> Me.
 <AnnN> looking pretty lonely out there...
 <FredB> I agve up watching pro wrestling for this? :-)
<FredB> agve=gave
 <Vinnie> Kynn, how long did it take you to make that search cgi scricpt on the membership database page?
 <Kynn> I just adapted a script provided by iServer, if you mean the search script on www.hwg.org
 <Vinnie> Oh I thought you made the script at www.fullerton.org/memberdb
 <Kynn> Oh, THAT one, yeah.
<Kynn> I don't remember how long it took.
<Kynn> It's pretty simple, though.
 <Vinnie> oh hehe
 <Kynn> It maintains a separate 'name list' for searching purposes.
<Kynn> They didn't pay me that much for the programming, so I didn't do anything fancy. :)
 <Vinnie> I have no idea how to program cgi, but its something I've always wanted to do :)
 <Kynn> It's not that hard -- Matt of Matt's scripts has a good CGI page.
 <Vinnie> yeah I've been there
<Vinnie> thats a really nice page
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<hwgbot> [KLB4] The Howard Stern of HTML
*** Mode change "+o KLB4" on channel #hwg by hwgbot
<KLB4> Grr.
 <FredB> So, who's picking who in the Super Bowl?
 *** Signoff: Kynn (Ping timeout for Kynn[grev.idyllmtn.com])
<Kynn> I don't even know who's playing in the super bowl
 <FredB> Shame on you!!! :-)
 *** Monstzzzz is now known as MonstA
* MonstA yawns...
> What's a super bowl?
<MonstA> Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey... Mmmm...
 <FredB> <I'm alone here>
<FredB> :-)
 <MonstA> That's a super bowl... Mmmm...
<MonstA> But seriously folks...
 <Kynn> So Fred, you're running for Governing Board, eh? Wanna tell us a little about yourself?
 <FredB> Again?
 <Kynn> (Actually I know Fred, but this seemed like a good opening)
 <FredB> Okay.
 <Kynn> Well, maybe there are some people who dunno you. :)
<Kynn> Really the Nomination Committee was supposed to be running this IRC chat, but since they're not here...
 <FredB> They couldn't bother to show up either, eh? (just kidding)
 <MonstA> I for one... I have only read the brief a few days ago...
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 <MonstA> Nice to "meet" you Fred...
 <Kynn> Hi Susan, welcome.
 <Susan> I'm new at this IRC stuff please be patient with me
 <Kynn> 'kay. :)
 <MonstA> NP Susan, I'm an mIRC help channel regular...
 <FredB> Okay. I'll be 35 next March; I've been on the Internet since 1991 (started on a Commodore 64 if you can believe it)...
 <Kynn> 34, eh? Old man. :) [I'm 29]
 <Susan> I took a quick look at the mIRC documentation but I have to look up anything important
 <FredB> Been a member of HWG and a webmaster since 1996; Logo Team Manger since about July 1997; was a member for several months before then...
 <FredB> My hobbies are woodburning (pyrography), astronomy, and history.
> Side note, most of the NC say they are IRC-impaired.
<FredB> Anything more specific you want, just ask.
 <Kynn> jb, are you Jim Barchuk?
 <FredB> And I've used mIRC for several years now. :-)
 <Susan> I've been creating web pages since 1995 when I set up a small ISP for the Canadian Sport & Fitness Administration Centre. It was quite a learning experience and I'm still learning <g>
 <FredB> Just dloaded the latest version earlier today. Tonight's its baptism.
> I am several people.
 <MonstA> jim is Jim Barchuk... according to the /whois...
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<Kynn> Joe!
 <FredB> Hi Joe.
 *** Mode change "+o Joe_Cline" on channel #hwg by Kynn
 <Joe_Cline> Hi gang.
 <Kynn> The NC isn't here, so we're just chatting casually, I guess. FredB and Susan are the candidates who are here.
 <FredB> We win by default. :-)
<Kynn> By the way, Gerald sent a normal 'ABEND' letter saying he was away for the (long) weekend...
 <Joe_Cline> ok, well, don't let me interrupt.
> Yeah, I see candydates lined up edgewise trying to get a word in.
 <Kynn> 'ABEND' is what's usually used on Guild administrative addresses to say you'll be on vacation or othewise away from the net.
 <Susan> A number of people mentioned that the time was bad for them. I'm not sure how many of them were candidates.
 <FredB> There were at least two I saw said they couldn't make it.
> True, Susan, others are probably IRC-impaired.
 <Kynn> Yeah, well, it was an arbitrarily chosen time -- but it does coincide with the current GB meeting schedule.
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 <Susan> Well don't expect anything fancy from me in the way of IRC commands, but it seems like the easy stuff is working.
 <FredB> Starting to pick up now.
 <MonstA> I would say that makes it a good time to grow accustomed to freeing up...
 <Kynn> Hi Char!
<Kynn> Well, all you need to do is just type to us, I think. :)
 <Welsh> Hi everyone
*** Mode change "+o Welsh" on channel #hwg by Kynn
> Hi Char.
 <AnnN> freeing up?
 <MonstA> What I mean is, if you have hopes of being elected, you might want to keep this time slot free...
 <Kynn> That's true.
<Kynn> Being on the GB can take a lot of time.
 <AnnN> right. Unless there's a pressing need to change it, that's what works best now wiht our current 9.
> To: candydates: So what d'y'all think is the most important topic as seen in -elections?
 <Susan> The time is fine with me as it's now about 9:35pm my time.
<MonstA> Mmmm... candied dates...
 <FredB> Generating interest in the election (I'm not kidding either)
 * Kynn imagines MonstA saying that in a "homer simpson" voice
 <MonstA> Bingo
 <AnnN> are the observers here (outside of GB and NC) plus members or just interested parties?
 <MonstA> or should I say... Whoo Hoo
 <Susan> Most important topic: focusing the website and the organization back to it's educational roots, not necessarily via courses, but certainly via searchable content
 <MonstA> I am a plus member...
<Kynn> Hmmm, Susan -- how would you as a Board member see that goal carried out?
> Searchable would be nice but I think Kynn's recent sitemap was a big help for navigability, at least in terms of how I prefer to use sites.
 <Susan> I know that I've been tempted to move it away, and the more I read on the HWG site the more I realize why. There doesn't seem to be a real focus or direction, just a lot of information (good info mind you) that isn't always easy to find.
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<Susan> I come from a programming and database background, so my temptation is always to put everything into a database. Not always the best solution, but it works well for some site. One of the sites I work on SPORTQuest (http://www.sportquest.com) is basically a site with urls.
<Kynn> Wait, hold on a sec.
<Kynn> I didn't mean "technically speaking" -- the Board positions _aren't_ really "hands on" jobs, but rather "leadership" jobs.
<Kynn> In other words, it's not really my job as _President_ to provide site maps.
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<Kynn> As "backup sysadmin" (if Gerald dies or something), I can do that, and I chose to, but I didn't have to do it as part of my _Board_ job. As a Board member, you won't be coding databases; you'll be setting policy and making decisions.
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*** CStar has set the topic: The HTML Writers Guild, Inc. -
<http://www.hwg.org>
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<Susan> Kynn, I didn't mean that I was volunteering to create a search engine, just that my background tends to make me think of databases as a method of organizing info.
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*** Kynn has set the topic: Meet the HWG Governing Board Candidates
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<Kynn> Ah, okay, Susan.
<johnnymo> Hi guys! Sorry I'm late...
<johnnymo> I'm here in Vancouver BC (I'm from Montreal, Canada) on Vacation.
<Kynn> So you'd support a database-style navigation/search setup, Susan?
<johnnymo> It took me a while to find a computer that had IRC that I could use.
<johnnymo> Please accept my apologies for my tardiness. :)
<Susan> I think that a database-style search setup is a natural. Any new pages can be added to the search engine and it's faster than full-text search (which is also possible). It's especially great for organizing links to information on other sites.
<Kynn> That's okay. Johnnymo, you a HWG member, or a candidate I don't recognize, or just someone visiting? :)
<AnnN> Ok, the Governing Board generally isn't involved in implementation level things like the design of the web site (in our recent redesign, we only signed off on a look)
<johnnymo> Kynn: Greetings, I'm a HWG Member and a candidate :)
<johnnymo> Who is chairing this session ?
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<hwgbot> [wickline] a pleasantly insane individual... HWG JC mgr, HWG web asst mgr
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*** CStar has set the topic: The HTML Writers Guild, Inc. -
<http://www.hwg.org>
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<|Gizmo> hey everyone... what's up?
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<Susan> While the Board wouldn't be doing the hands on work on the site, I do think that content and how the site is structured should be in the Board domain. The site is the biggest presence that the Guild has.
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 <hwgbot> [KLB4] The Howard Stern of HTML
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*** Signoff: Kynn (Read error to Kynn[grev.idyllmtn.com]: Connection reset by peer)
<johnnymo> Is there anyone here that is NOT a candidate? ;)
<wickline> (anyone have a log of stuff so far they'd be willing to dcc so I can catch up?)
<|Gizmo> yeah...
* Meatball is not a candidate
<Kynn> I'm not a candidate :)
*** Mode change "+o tammy" on channel #hwg by Kynn
* wickline isn't either
 > Yes Matt, there will be a log.
* MonstA is not a candidate... for this election... =)
<Kynn> The ops are generally GB members
<johnnymo> How long will this session be? I am sorry for asking but I have to book and pay for the hours I'm using this terminal, and the people here are asking
<johnnymo> for my total time usage... Apparantly there is a waiting list .
<Kynn> johnnymo, question for you: Being on the Board often requires a lot of online-time to stay active -- will you be able to be on for an extra, say, 10-15 hours a week doing Board business?
<Susan> Should we set a time limit on this session and try to work within that?
<johnnymo> Kynn: I have no problems with that. I own a local ISP and often enough I am online....
<FredB> The only question asked so far that you missed Matt was what we thought the most important issue so far is.
<Kynn> Well, for reference, GB meetings generally run 1.5 to 2 hours, Susan -- that could be a good limit.
<johnnymo> I usually have an appointment book that
<johnnymo> I keep to make sure I have time for certain tasks.
<Kynn> Johnny, I'm not sure I understand -- you said you have to pay for the hours now as you're connected? But you also own a local ISP?
<Susan> Two hours isn't a problem as that would mean finishing up around 11pm my time.
<FredB> For the IRC access Kynn.
<FredB> I think.
<johnnymo> Kynn: I mentioned when I first logged in here, that I am on vacation in Vancouver BC, Canada (I'm originally from Montreal, Canada)
<johnnymo> Kynn: and I'm here 'renting' time from a place that has internet connection....
<johnnymo> In Montreal, there has been devastation from the ice storm.. and well.. I have been burned out from it and wanted to
<Kynn> Oh, yeah, sorry -- I forgot that
<johnnymo> take it easy, but of course, I also didn't want to miss this session... Afterall, I wanted to make up for the
<johnnymo> lack of profile and missing the EMail that was sent in December...
<Kynn> JohnnyMo, what issues do you think will be important ones for the Board to address this year? <Susan> I'm in Ottawa Ontario and was one of the lucky ones who only lost power briefly (though lots of flickers). Many people just outside of the city still don't have power.
<johnnymo> Susan: Yes.. my parents still have no power and it's day 12 for them... :(
<FredB> FWIW, 10-15 extra hours a week would be absolutely no problem for me. I've many times gone all day long online.
<johnnymo> remember folks, in Quebec, 80 % of the households use electricity for heating.
<Kynn> Thanks Fred.
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<Kynn> Hello Chris_TWO, welcome. Are you a candidate, voting member, or spectator? :)
<FredB> Did you get it Matt?
<Chris_TWO> I'm just a regular member
<Kynn> Okay, you're still welcome, Chris. :)
<Kynn> The candidates today are johnnymo, Susan, and FredB
*** Kynn has set the topic.
*** Kynn has set the topic: GB Candidates: FredB, Susan, johnnymo
<wickline> good idea kynn. :)
<johnnymo> If there are any questions from the members, I will be glad to answer them... :)
<wickline> fredb was kind enough to fill me on his and susan's response to the "what's the most important issue this year" question, what would be your response, johnnymo? (I may have missed it if you already replied)
<johnnymo> I'm sorry to sound like I'm in a rush, but apparently I must give up my machine to another paying customer who booked this time slot before.
<wickline> drats :(
<johnnymo> As soon as a machine is available, I will return to the scene :)
*** Signoff: |Gizmo (/me is outta here!)
<Kynn> Understand, johnnymo...
<FredB> Gotta get him a notebook. Then you can get me one too. :-)
<Susan> I think we should encourage more paying members. If we cannot offer something extra to paying members, then perhaps we should limit what is available to non-paying members. Does anyone know how difficult it would be to institute "trial" access to the various listservs and then limit them to paying members? Good idea bad idea?
<Kynn> Well, every time it's been proposed on hwg-ops, the responses have been roughly "get a rope" to string up whomever suggested it.
<FredB> Taking away the free lists (if that's what you're suggesting) would probably raise a bigger stink than price discusions ever have.
*** Signoff: Chris_TWO (Leaving)
<Kynn> I think it might be "good for the Guild" to move some of the "free lists" to paying membership, but that good is outweighed by the bad karma
<Susan> Humm well, I guess all I can say as a candidate is: I'll keep trying to come up with ideas and those that have been around for awhile can let me know which ones they've tried or looked at already.
* Kynn looks at Susan.
* AnnN looks at Kynn looking at Susan
<Joe_Cline> What other funding ideas to the candidates have (besides Plus membership dues)?
<Kynn> Why did you ask "does anyone know how difficult it would be...?" if you're going to give a pouty-sounding response?
<Susan> Kynn, what if there was a 2-3 month lead time to let people get used to the idea? I know that the information provided by hwg-business and hwg-servers (where I hang out) is very high quality high level and hard to find elsewhere at that caliber.
<FredB> I still like the t-shirt idea. Even suggested a variation on it that might reduce ou overhead.
<Susan> Sorry if it sounded pouty. It wasn't meant to be.
<FredB> ou=our
<AnnN> membership dues will never fully support the organization, so we are investigating means of other income.
<AnnN> What ideas would the candidates propose?
<Susan> I've tried getting enough banner ads to support one site I work on and have come to the conclusion that unless you have a LOT of traffic it won't help much. Sponsorship for ads might though.
<Kynn> What kind of ads? (Not sure what you mean)
<AnnN> I'm going to go out on a limb here (and not addressing any one candidate):
<johnnymo> I'm sorry all.. I really have to get off the machine.. :(((( I shall return.....
<Susan> Large computer orgs who have an education branch might be willing to provide sponsorship for a graphical link back to their site.
<AnnN> Many of the responses to very pointed questions that the GB has asked here, and on -elections, have been answered in very vague non-answer kind of ways.
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<AnnN> In order to effectively judge a candidate's decision making process, we need to see details of how you work and think.
<AnnN> Hopefully that may help candidates frame their answers.
<Susan> Kynn: basically banner style ads, but instead of selling based on impressions or click-throughs, we would sell on a month or several month basis. For instance an ad on the first page might cost $500/month.
<Susan> The more content we can provide that will attract visitors, the easier selling other pages becomes.
<AnnN> how would having a banner for another site on ours attract more people?
<Susan> The banners don't attract more visitors. We would need to improve the content on the site, perhaps with specific sections similar to how the listservs are organized.
<AnnN> how do you see that fitting into the dilemma of free content against paid membership?
<MonstA> How do we convince the advertiser that our visitors will change their mind and go to their site intstead...
<Susan> I would have a tendency to leave the content on the site as free and the listservs as a benefit of membership.
<FredB> That's why so many advertisers pay for click-through only now...
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<Susan> If the advertising is focused (ie appeals to web developers) then I don't think you would have a problem selling sponsorhip.
<Susan> Targetted advertising gets clickthroughs in the neighbourhood of 5% and higher, whereas non-targetted advertising gets less than 1%.
<Kynn> Hello Demitrius.
<Demitrius> Hi!
<Demitrius> Sorry I'm late. Change of plans.
<AnnN> Susan, how would you balance the new content on the web site that you propose against the current problem of "too much content in the free membership plan" ?
*** Kynn has set the topic.
*** Kynn has set the topic: GB Candidates: FredB, Susan, Demitrius
<Susan> I think we should also approach sponsors with the idea that they are helping to promote the HWG which is interested in education. Sponsorship on the goodwill fuzzy feeling they could get.
<Kynn> Demitrius, this is sort of an 'open forum' right now, mostly people asking the candidates (or the air) questions.
<wickline> hmmm.... spelling sounds worst to me... I'm lousy at spelling ;)
<wickline> oops!
<Demitrius> I'm lost without spellchecker.
<Demitrius> May I comment about advertising?
<Kynn> Sure, open forum, fire away.
<Susan> Ann: I would provide web content free and listservs only with membership. In order to get sponsors we need as much exposure to the web pages as possible.
<Demitrius> I see Susan was talking about banner ads. I think that's a great idea.
<Demitrius> Let me explain
<Kynn> Okay, after that I have a few questions for you as well, Demitrius.
<Demitrius> What if we approached someone link C/net and attempted to negotiate a banner ad program that was in trade, not dollars?
<Joe_Cline> Trade for?
<Demitrius> Mutual links kind of thing.
<Kynn> Well, the question would be, do we _need_ banners pointing to us?
<Demitrius> Banner ad for banner ad.
<Kynn> In the sense that with the logo program (hi Fred!) we're linked in pretty well over the net as it is.
<FredB> Should I wait before I take a crack at Ann's question?
<FredB> Hi Kynn! :-)
<Demitrius> Kynn, isn't the trade (exposure) worth it?
<Kynn> Something like Builder.com might be a good place to be linked -- and we're already mentioned there as a good HTML resource -- but most of the other sites are for "end users" not designers?
<Demitrius> Yes! Builder.com! Kynn, I *might* see the logo once a month.
<Susan> Demitrius: banner exchanges are usually done between sites with equivalent hit exposures. I don't think the big guys would be interested.
<FredB> I don't think C|Net is going to give up paying advertisers just for a link either.
<Kynn> Well, as I said, Builder.com -does- have a link to the Guild.
<Demitrius> How to we know unless we ask?
<Demitrius> No, but builder.com maybe.
<Kynn> Actually the Guild gets a pretty respectable amount of hits.
<Demitrius> I need to look at builder again. I didn't see us there.
<Demitrius> Us = HWG
<Susan> We might want to set up a resource area on the HWG site that has links to let's say java education sites, and then ask them to link back. I think that is a possibility.
<Susan> java was just an example
<Kynn> To be honest? The Guild is linked in _all_ over the place.
<AnnN> Materially, how would doing so help the Guild's financial status?
<Demitrius> Yeah, like javaworld.com or the like.
<Kynn> I personally (as a voting member) don't see extra links to the HWG as being of great value at this point.
<Demitrius> I think we should charge $19.95 per year for basic.
<Demitrius> At least.
<FredB> Get a rope!
<FredB> :-)
<Demitrius> !!
<Demitrius> ;)
<Susan> Demitrius: we were looking at ways to help finance the Guild and I brought up sponsorship via banner ads.
<Demitrius> I think banner ads have potential, but I think we should charge for basic.
<Demitrius> It's worth it.
<Meatball> between y'all and me... if you charge for basic, I'd most likely not be a member anymore.
<Demitrius> Okay.
<AnnN> why not, meatball?
<AnnN>
<honest answers appreciated, we need to be able to evaluate those sentiments>
<Meatball> I'm too poor already....
<Demitrius> Twenty bucks?!! You can find that in your sofa!
<Meatball> That's what *YOU* think...
<FredB> Not my sofa either.
<Demitrius> I'll come over! ;)
<MonstA> I think many feel the same way...
<Meatball> I'm 20 years old, sturggling to make it through college, and i jsut can't afford to spend money... and i know many otheres like me...
<Demitrius> Okay, I respect that, however..
<AnnN> have you considered volunteering ot earn credits?
<Kynn> Meatball is also one of our important volunteers too.
<wickline> he does ann
<MonstA> Plus the Internet is the great something for nothing...
<Meatball> I'm the RFP Manager
<wickline> :)
<Demitrius> Yeah, volunteer credit!
<AnnN> ok, "meatball" doesn't say that for me :)
<Meatball> however, that (as it stands) only *BOOSTS* your membership...
<tammy> excuse me ... but why are you guys running if you're mainly interested in restructuring everything that we are now
<Demitrius> But for the rest of them...
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<Meatball> the rest of who?
<Demitrius> Love your name Cartman.
<Cartman> thanks
<Susan> Tammy, I'm not looking to re-structure everything. However if the idea is to create more revenues, then at least in brainstorming, we should look at our options.
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<MonstA> BRB...
<AnnN> You don't see it possible to increase revenue within the current structure?
<Demitrius> With all due respect to Meatball, what would we lose if people who wouldn't pay left the guild?
<tammy> yes ... but the guild's foundation is its basic (FREE) lists and (FREE) resources ... chaning that changes us totally
<Meatball> agreed
<Demitrius> Yes, and?
<wickline> demetrius: tens of thousands of members
<Welsh> Quite a few of our most important volunteers
<Demitrius> Out of 50,000 - and?
<Susan> AnnN: without improving the site, or adding sponsors, or changing the membership? I dunno.
<Demitrius> It'll take work, sure.
<Kynn> Right now we have almost 49,000 members who haven't been willing to pay $20 for "value" membership.
<Demitrius> That's because you've made all the good stuff FREE!!!!!!
<AnnN> make that about 48,500 ;)
<Meatball> honestly, there is not much incentive to pay that... what added services do you get?
<Demitrius> Hello???? * Meatball waves... "Hi"
<Kynn> Right, the good stuff is free -- because it started out free, and the fee structure was added on later.
<Demitrius> You get to keep what you have now. > So, candydates, how do we increase the 'value' of value membership?
<wickline> D: it was free when they got here (paid membership came along later) and they would be quite unhappy to have it yanked away
<Susan> Kynn: I don't see a big difference between what one gets at the basic level and what one gets at the other levels. There is just no incentive to pay IMHO.
<Meatball> hint: make there an incentive.
<AnnN> it doesn't seem important to any of you to repay what you've gained?
<Demitrius> Jeeeze, I could write 10 pages about this.
<Meatball> then write them.
<Kynn> The way I see it is that the Guild is "donationware"
<Demitrius> Will you wait?
<wickline> d: write em and post em and announce em on -elections :)
<Meatball> email it to me
<Demitrius> You Got It!
<Susan> Ann: I repay what I've gained by answering the queries others have in the listservs. (or at least until I accepted the nomination)
<wickline> (post on web, announce url)
<Kynn> In other words, go ahead and use it for free, but if you see value in the Guild and what it provides for you, you should pay and be a "registered user"
<FredB> I repay as Logo Team Manager.
<Kynn> We haven't stressed that aspect of the dues, though; how could we do that?
<AnnN> I find it very disturbing that no one has seen enough value to pay dues, but now they see enough value to spend 10-15 hours a week or more for the organization.
<AnnN> Yes, you do, Fred.
<Kynn> Yeah, I think Fred does more as a volunteer than most any other candidate save Gerald?
<AnnN> I'd say that's a good estimation, Kynn
<Joe_Cline> Yes, with the exception of Gerald.
<FredB> Stop, I'm blushing. :-)
<wickline> hehe
<Joe_Cline> Major portions of the Guild would be inoperable without Gerald.
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<Kynn> Gerald's not here -- he's taken the weekend "off", with prior notice to the Board -- but I just want to point out to everyone here that Gerald is one of our most valuable contributors, board memvers, and volunteers.
<wickline> like the web server ;)
<Susan> Ann: I've spent the last year looking at a whole slew of organizations that have something to do with the Internet. I don't have the time or money to invest in all of them. I picked two, and this one is one of them.
<wickline> (joke)
<Demi> My connection got yanked! Was that an omen or what?
<wickline> (mostly)
<Kynn> I want to urge everyone to make sure that one of your three votes is for Gerald...as I and everyone else who's worked with him consider him essential to the operation of the Guild.
<Kynn> Plus he's a great guy, and too modest to sing his own praises.
<wickline> I second that!
<tammy> Susan ... you say that you've contributed to the Guild ... but you're not a current paid member ... how have you volunteered
<Joe_Cline> Anyone who has been around the Guild for more than a year should SHUDDER at the thought of Gerald not being on the Board.
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<Kynn> (Plus Gerald is a stabilizing influence; he talks me out of stupid ideas)
<Demi> No I haven't!
<wickline> (also, gerald has said more in his vision statement, qualifications statement than many other candidates have said in a week or two of campaigning)
<AnnN> heh...he definitely is mr. cool
<Meatball> and i thought it may hurt gerald to not be here... :)
<tammy> Susan ... did you catch the above question?
<MonstA> Here here... MR wickline... =)
<Susan> Tammy... It may seem like very little compared to some of the others, but I do spend a fair bit of time answering questions on the two listservs I participate in. (not counting elections)
<AnnN> (btw...our lists aren't 'listservs'
<FredB> May I answer Ann's question on how to raise revenue now?
<Demi> Please.
<Kynn> Sorry Fred, go ahead
<AnnN> please, Fred
<tammy> well ... I went and checked when I read that on -elections ... I'm pretty familiar with list contributors since I manage the list guides ... but, when I checked the archives ... you contributions to the lists seem to match your being nominated as a candidate. Are the archives in error:
<FredB> Okay. Since paid membership will never meet all our needs, there are other ways to use them, even the Basic members...
<FredB> It's something my local astronomy club does to raise money, as well as other groups...
<FredB> Raffles.
<AnnN> what would you raffle for the guild?
<Susan> Tammy: I've been active in both of those lists for some time, though I can't remember off hand when I started. How many messages I respond to depends entirely on how much time I have available. I've also spent some time in -reviews awhile back.
<tammy> then you're saying the archives are wrong?
<Demi> I wonder if Dreamweaver would offer a free program in exchange for being promoted on the site?
<FredB> Specifically, of web related items either bought us (non-profit orgs can many times get items at even less than street price)...
<Kynn> (-critiques, right? not -reviews?)
<FredB> or donated by businesses for the tax write off.
<Kynn> Sorry to have two threads going, Fred. What kind of web-related items?
<Susan> Tammy: the archives won't be exact as I don't always do a "reply all" and therefore sometimes only reply directly to the person asking the question. > We could raffle a weekend at Club Fred with the winner's GB-member-of-choice. :)
<Demi> I wonder if Homesite (Allaire) would offer a free program or two in exchange for a banner ad on the site. That would give us the goods to raffle.
<AnnN> has anyone looked into the legal regulations surrounding such activities?
<Susan> Kynn: yes, sorry it would be -critiques. I didn't stay on that one too long.
<Demi> Lawyers, D'ho!
<FredB> Example (JUST an example), many don't want to have to pay $200 for say Frontpage '98, but wouldn't mind sending in $1 or 2 for the chance to win it.
<tammy> if you only reply to the person then you're not contributing on the list ... your first post according to the archives is October 14
<Demi> I agree, Fred.
<Kynn> I don't think Gerald would pay $200 for FrontPage '98, or even $2. :)
<Demi> How about Dreamweaver?
<Kynn> Logistically, I'm not sure if we have the ability to process micropayments on the $1-2 scale reasonably, though...
<Demi> Or some trick stuff like Emblaze?
<Kynn> I dunno. It's a definite possibility, I suppose.
<AnnN> true, Kynn. cash becomes a problem, as does processing $1-2 checks too many times over.
<Demi> Okay, how about $5 chances?
<MonstA> What restrictions does our NPO tax status put on fund raising..?
<Kynn> I guess it's a possibility. As Ann says, the legalities would have to be looked into.
<AnnN> quite a few. Enough to fill a big IRS booklet :)
<Susan> Tammy: just did a quick check here and I subscribed to - business on October 13th. > Software: App -must- cover Win/Mac/*nix at a minimum, anything else would be potentially useless to the weiner.
<MonstA> Then any fundraising would have to be within those rules...
<FredB> Every charity does raffles at one time or another, so I don't think it would hurt us.
<AnnN> well, of course I wouldn't see someone going in for a product they wouldn't be able to use.
<Kynn> Was that after you were nominated (or self-nominated), Susan?
<Kynn> Not that it matters.
<Kynn> I'm just curious.
<Susan> Kynn: I received my nomination about mid-
<Susan> oop Mid-December
<AnnN> For the effort to be cost effective, we need to look at large ticket revenues. What sources do each of you see for that?
<FredB> FP was just an example. Adobe Photoshop, or any expensive graphic program would work just as well.
<AnnN> (um, nominations closed in November)
<Demi> I think it has good potential.
<Kynn> Hmmm, that's a possibility, Fred -- as Ann says, though, we need to figure out what level of income it will produce, and how much work/cost is involved.
<Susan> What about the first "raffle" being only for paid members. ie. if you want to be eligible, you should upgrade your membership?
<wickline> I'm with ann: raffles are hard to envisoin as steady reliable budgetable income :(
<Kynn> Generally for the Guild, cost is equal to the amount of volunteer effort needed -- e.g., how much effort would Ann (as treasurer) need to do, in order to take the payments.
<wickline> but good for occasional $ if the overhead of processing isn't too much and the legal stuff ain't a prob
<FredB> Tickets we might could get donated as a tax write off too, so that might avoid that exxpense.
<Kynn> Numbers in the $5 range pretty much exclude non-Americans, who'd need to spend more than that to get international money orders.
<AnnN> meaning: short of hiring an admin assistant for me, my time is valued quite high, in view of the other senior management activities I must perform.
<Susan> As a first step, I think we should approach one of the "cybercash" type companies and see if they would handle credit card transactions for us for free in exchange for a banner.
<AnnN> the guild has a credit card processor already
<AnnN> Ok, what I'm talking about, in terms of "big ticket" sources of revenue, are dollar amounts in the 5 figures or higher (minimum $10,000 at a shot).
<AnnN> What possibilities do each of you see there?
<Susan> Ann: one of the companies I'm looking into here in Canada will handle all of the transaction including making the deposit. At the end of the transaction the client is sent a list of everyone who purchased. Unless the Guild's method is pretty automated it would be a lot of paperwork.
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<AnnN> yes, we have a credit card processor (that's standard processing methods, I have that for WebGeek)
<Susan> Ann: I could see sponsorship bringing in $1,000 a month if we work at it.
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<Susan> yikes what happened to everyone?
<Welsh> oops > [click]
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<Demi> They're baaaack.
<Kynn> Lovely netsplit
<MonstA> You were saying...
<jim> [click]
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<wickline> oh no! Cstar took over the channell! (joke)
<MonstA> hahahaha
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<Kynn> I forget, what was our question?
<Susan> Just in case you guys missed it. I think we could get about $1000/month in sponsorship ($500 main page, $200/page for 5 others).
<MonstA> How do we raise many K...
<AnnN> I asked about big ticket revenues, meaning $10K or more.
<Demi> If Microsoft will donate several thousands of dollars in software for a give away, perhaps they'll give us software for our raffle.
<Susan> oops my math is off, that would be about $1500 a month
<Kynn> Susan, Gerald came up with some figures; I alluded tothem in a post on hwg-ops a month or two ago.
<Kynn> We may be able to get more income than that, depending on how we do it.
<Kynn> So possibly it may mean $5K/month or more.
<Susan> Kynn.. I'll make a note to check -ops for that later
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<Susan> Kynn we might be able to get more, but until we start pounding on doors we won't know for sure. I've done some of that for one site and it was disappointing.
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<FredB> Are we talking about only one single ad banner on the pages in the site? I would'nt have too much of a problem with that, but more would just alienate people too much.
<FredB> Per page that is.
<Kynn> It depends on how we'd want to do it, Fred.
<Demi> That's the norm, isn't it?
<Susan> Fred: I was thinking of one banner per page only. More than that and you alienate your sponsors as well
<g>
<FredB> Not on some sites Demi. :-)
<FredB> True susan. :-)
<Demi> That's true. Kynn, about how many visits does the site get per day.
<Demi> ?
<Susan> If we limit the ads, we can also get more for them, especially if we are looking at sponsorship instead of impressions. > Dunno about anyone else but I -never- look at banners, just get annoyed at how long they take to dl and how much screen space they waste. > YMMV
<Demi> But they produce.
<Meatball> honesly, i do look at them.
<Demi> So do I.
<Meatball> especially if they are *TARGETED*
<Demi> Yes.
<Susan> If the ads are targetted, I sometimes will visit them. They have to be for something that interests me though.
<FredB> I have actually clicked one or two in my time.
<wickline> hmmm..... does anyone think making our educational charter more obvious to members (and visitors) on the website could interfere with higher add revenue (connotation that sudents/educators have less $$ than pros)
<Kynn> A year ago, we were serving up 10,000 pages a day, with 20% of that being the home page
<Kynn> So a year ago, 2,000 hits/day to the top page
<Kynn> Or 60,000/month
<Demi> Thank you.
<Kynn> Currently they're probably more than that > OK, so what are going rates for hits?
<Kynn> So if we put banners on every page, we're probably talking about 500,000 impressions per month, at least
<Kynn> I don't know offhand
<FredB> Making ourselves more visible as an educational organization won't hurt us, and in some respects may help.
<Susan> I think we should make the educational charter more obvious, and I don't think it would negatively impact sponsorship. Many hitech companies have educational divisions and programs.
<Joe_Cline> obvious, how, Susan?
<Kynn> How should we make the educational charter more obvious?
<FredB> People who are learning are usully buying things to help them do their work.
<Kynn> How should we make ourselves more visible as an educational organization, Fred?
<Susan> Joe: right now the site gives the impression of being academic, but without clear links to finding specific information. There's info about the lists and archives and faqs, but if I want to find out how to use style sheets, there isn't an easy path.
<Demi> If I may; by trading banner ad space with software companies.
<Kynn> What benefits would the Guild gain by trading banner ad space?
<FredB> Changing the text on the front page of the website is the most obvious way, with a prominent link to our complete charter displayed...
<Demi> More members = more revenues.
<Demi> IF we charged for basic.
<Joe_Cline> Susan, really? how about /resources/index.html
<Kynn> I need to idle a bit, I'll back in 10 minutes or so.
<Susan> Joe: I followed resources but really, I didn't find it all that easy to get specific info.
<Kynn> Tammy and Char are in charge while I'm gone :)
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<wickline> (regarding banners: there's annother growing-in-popularity type of add... see bottom of http://www.macintouch.com/ for their text adds... but for purposes of this talk, the difference probly doesn't mattter, just thought I'd toss it out for those who might be interested :)
<Meatball> My HMO: the resources are a bit difficult, but i always find what i need...
<Joe_Cline> it has its own icon on the main page, how much more up front could we make it?
<Susan> Fred: I agree that we have to state our educational goals quite clearly on the first page. Currently it lists what kind of people are members but it doesn't really say what the goal is.
<Welsh> In what way are resources difficult?
<Kynn> Susan:
<Kynn> Basic membership in the Guild is free and open to anyone with a desire to
<Meatball> just all the divisions & titles make it sometimes difficlut to locate thigns: example say i want to find the link to gerald's KGV... what subsectionis it under?
<Kynn> improve or perfect their skills in the craft of web design.
<Kynn> In what way does that text from the front page not describe the goal?
<Kynn> I'm curious
<Kynn> Since I rewrote the previous text.
<Susan> IMHO I think the links to the resources should be on the first page and the pages with links organized so that they are searchable. They are very long html pages right now.
<Meatball> uh... there is a link to the resources on the front page....
<Joe_Cline> Well, the links to the resources are on the first page. How much time have you spent at the HWG site?
<Susan> Kynn: I just re-read the first page. The first two paragraphs explain who the site is aimed at, but not what its focus is.
<Meatball> (the links to the resources are on *EVERY* page now that i think about it)
<AnnN> ayup, part of the menu :)
<Susan> Joe: I'm talking about the resources page. (information repositories)
<Joe_Cline> I give up.
<AnnN>
<the blurb about 501(c)3 status as an educational org is pretty obvious, IMO>
<Susan> Ann: yes it is. However the first two paragraphs (equivalent to the first screenful if browser is not in full mode) doesn't say it.
<Susan> Joe: what I was suggesting (and maybe there just isn't enough room for all the buttons), is to have links to the actual resources off the first page.
<AnnN> I really don't understand how that's not being done now, both in the icon and the text menu.
<Welsh> Susan: Why would you want to do that?
<AnnN> (Again, the GB isn't about micromanaging the web site, it's about policy, direction setting, and management of the entire guild)
<Joe_Cline> Susan, that's the way it is, currently. The resources link is on EVERY page.
<Susan> Welsh: because any site I've seen that provides resources, or information, has links right from the first page to: for example style sheets, on the first screen. It makes it more obvious what sort of info is available. One of the things I was suggesting, was to have sections dedicated to topics similar to the list.
<Susan> Joe: the "resources" icon is on every page but not the links to the specific resources ie the items on the resources page.
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<Welsh> Susan: if you have specific recommendations or would like to volunteer to help send email to resources(at)hwg.org
<FredB> Ann, Kynn asked how we would make our educational charter more visible. If we don't start with our most visible asset, where should we start?
<AnnN> There's more to visiblity than the web site though.
<AnnN> What we're trying to impart by some of our questions is that the purpose of the GB is to
<FredB> True. There's the Logo.
<Susan> Welsh: I don't want to volunteer just yet, but if I'm not elected, that could be another way I could contribute. (how's that for incentive not to elect me
<laugh>)
<AnnN> manage the entire focus and direction of the Guild, not necessarily "micromanage" the web site, or any other one specific program.
<AnnN> Yes, but even more than that, "visibility" just isn't something that's seen on the web.
<AnnN> gbers need to be able to look beyond the obvious
<tammy> Susan ... being a GB member is not a hands on program position ... so what does one have to do with the other
<Welsh> Susan I was serious about sending your suggestions. Matthew (the resouces manager) is always looking for ways to improve them.
<FredB> Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar though. :-0
<Susan> Tammy: they are related in the sense that if I'm a board member, I don't think I would have the time to also volunteer in other areas.
<MonstA> I think I have an Idea to increase member dues... all members are subscribed to hwg-news right...
<tammy> correct
<MonstA> I can't remember the last time I got anything from hwg-news... What about just mailing an apeal to the members..?
<AnnN> yes, all members get -news
<Susan> Welsh: I've got some ideas and could even help program depending on your setup.
<tammy> there was a newsletter just last week
<MonstA> ???
<AnnN> yup, one went out within the last few days (and we've trumpted membership dues in every one of them)
<Susan> I think a monthly newsletter might be useful. I know that I started subscribing to lists after receiving an email. I'd forgotten about you guys for awhile.
<FredB> Like a raffle though, it wouldn't be a reliable source of income.
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<FredB> And you certainly couldn't do it every month.
<MonstA> I guess I get so much mail I didn't even notice...
<Susan> Fred: I dunno, I get two a month from Microsoft, one a month from Netscape, plus all of my daily stuff.
<FredB> No Susan. I meant beg for money from the members.
<FredB> HWG does send out a monthly newsletter.
<Susan> Fred: I dunno, a brief message on each one suggesting they sign up shouldn't be too annoying.
<AnnN> um, we already do that.
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<FredB> Reminding them about being "able" to upgrade their membership is one thing. Constantly asking for donations will get very tiring after awhile.
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<tammy> it's against the rules
<Susan> Is it monthly already? I've noticed them recently, but before fall? Guess I just missed them.
<FredB> They've always been monthly Susan.
<Kynn> Hi folks, sorry I was away. Back now, with chocolate ice cream.
<FredB> OOh. My fav!
<MonstA> One thing I did notice was the letter I got last week from the guild... Perhaps that would get more members to sign up... I think increasing dues is a steady, relyable source of income, am I wrong..?
<Susan> humm almost midnight snack time... speaking of which, it is getting late over here. I don't know if anyone has anymore questions for me, but I'd like to head out within the next 15-20 min.
<Kynn> Dues are somewhat steady but not very much.
<Kynn> In other words, they're not enough to rely on for operation of the Guild.
<FredB> Increasing dues could cause more people to drop Plus membership, thus balancing out the increase, or even lowering our income.
<Kynn> Good point, Fred
<MonstA> If the due payers were 1 in 10 instead of 1 in 50, would that help...
<FredB> I have a few. Not many, but a few. :-)
<Kynn> Do you mean "increasing the number of people paying dues" rather than "increasing the charge for dues"?
<MonstA> Yes numbers...
<MonstA> increasing the charge will really turn people off...
<Kynn> Ahh, good point. Candidates -- what would you do to promote more plus membership? I sorta asked this on the list, I think, too.
<FredB> Unfortunately, the answer is more services.
<Susan> I hate to come back to the logo thing, and I know there would be work involved... but, how many people come to the site, fill out the form, sign up for the one manditory list, get the logo and never come back?
<Kynn> What else would we want them to do, Susan?
<Susan> Well, I would prefer that they get a "link to HWG" type logo, and that paid members get our current logo.
<Kynn> There are probably 10,000 - 20,000 people subscribed to one or more discussion lists
<FredB> We've likely gotten all the Plus members we're going to get just on wanting to finacially helping the Guild. The rest are going to expect extras for their dollars.
<AnnN> actually, most of the paid members we have joined after the membership dues were implemented.
<Kynn> So probably about 60-80% of our members do exactly that -- just sign up for hwg-news and maybe use the logo.
<Kynn> Fred, I'm not sure I agree, because I don't think we've made any 'membership drive' efforts.
<Susan> If we have 50,000 members and only have 10,000-20,000 subscribed to lists, what are the others doing and how can we make it more appealing to them?
<Kynn> We've only offered the option to upgrade, we haven't sold it tothem.
<Kynn> I don't know what the others are doing; maybe they just don't like mailing lists.
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<FredB> But we mention the Plus in each -news. That doesn't count?
<Kynn> You're supposed to be supplying answers, Susan, not asking questions. :)
<Kynn> Nobody really cares, for election purposes, what _I_ think we should do. :)
<Prowler> what is this room all about?
<MonstA> Mentioning the plus in -news just isn't reaching people...
<Prowler> i say throw a party and forget the goverment
<Susan> Kynn: if you get them asking the wrong questions, you don't have to worry about the answers (old saying)
<Prowler> thank you grass hoppa
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<MonstA> hahahahah
<Prowler> i dont think so
<AnnN> "wrong questions" ? I find it amusing that those who currently serve on the GB could be asking the "wrong questions" of potential GBers
<Prowler> try again
<Kynn> Oh for crying out loud. Prowler, this is a meeting of the HTML Writers Guild, a "town hall" to meet the candidates in the upcoming election.
<Kynn> Please don't disrupt the meeting. Thanks.
<Prowler> html huh may i make a sugestion?
<Susan> I don't think the main logo should be given with the free membership, but only to those who are willing to support the Guild financially. Policing may be next to impossible, but I still think we would get a higher number of subscribers at the basic level if we did. We could have another icon for people wishing to link to the site.
<Kynn> Susan, why would someone join the guild, paying money, if they can just take the icon off a site for free?
<FredB> True. They could grab it off anybody else's site. It certainly happens now.
<Susan> Kynn, there is some honor amongst most people in this field (though not all.. found a site today that stole our entire site word for word.. grrr)
<Kynn> Do you really think people would fork over $35 for a specific logo? Especially when we have another one available too?
<Kynn> I'm really skeptical.
<Kynn> Of course, that's not all they get.
<Susan> Just because we know that it's almost impossible to enforce doesn't mean that most people would automatically know that.
<Kynn> But that's the way it will be phrased.
<Kynn> Uhm.
<Kynn> so we're selling them something that we know has no real value, but we hope they'll be ignorant enough to buy it anyway?
<Demi> What has no value?!
<Kynn> A "paid members only" logo.
<Demi> Oh, okay.
<Kynn> Since we have no way of restricting it to paid members only, it loses its value.
<Welsh> And why would you want to limit the use of the logo when you seem to be in favor of the idea of banners linking to our site?
<Susan> well if we say "if you wish to continue using the logo, you must join the guild at at least the basic level", I think you'd get an increase in membership. I think that new people hitting the site would be more impressed with the list of goodies if it had a logo.
<Prowler> if html is lookin for a new leader or whatever make it someone who can write a program that a person who has been on a comp for 7 months can hack there work all to pieces..otherwise you all have to worry about hackers like i..
<Meatball> It's been Fun guys, but i must go to bed... darn flu..... We need to do this again (for non-elections purposes)...
<Kynn> Well, everyone now is at basic level.
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<MonstA> I think we may need to do a bit of both(I'm not talking about logos) to get more plus members... Add services(especially ones already listed like mentor/apprentice) and make some free resources plus/value only...
<Prowler> see you all cant even kick lil ol me
<Susan> Welsh: I was looking at banners as a source of revenue, not as a source of additional hits.
*** Signoff: Meatball (Read error to Meatball[ip21.phoenix2.az.pub-ip.psi.net]: EOF from client)
<Prowler> and its not because im being a pain its because you dont wnt to listen
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<Kynn> Prowler, please don't disturb our meeting.
<MonstA> What's with Cstar..?
<Prowler> mirc complicated program ...html easy to alter easy to destroy coolchat or chat house...
<MonstA> [22:56]
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<MonstA> ???
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<Prowler> how can you hold a electction when you cant even write a program or listen to the public
<Itsy> did whoever set the ban auth ?
<Kynn> Hi, Itsy, apparently I didn't.
<Titi> Hei ! Nice to meet you !
<Itsy> channel ban would probably work
<Itsy> ;)
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<Titi> I'm Cristiana from Brasil !
<Prowler> nope
<Kynn> Not sure what to do, actually.
<Kynn> Anyway.
<Kynn> I think this meeting is about wrapped up? Any final comments from the candidates?
<Titi> hei !
<Itsy> if youre running mirc, /ban nick 3 usually works
<Prowler> yea right
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<Prowler> see
<Demi> Thanks for the chat, Kynn.
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<Susan> Think I'm going to head out guys.. tired here and I haven't even read my mail yet. I'll be active on -elections, so you're welcome to ask away in there or in email.
*** Signoff: Prowler (Killed (DeathStar.StarLink-IRC.Org[209.16.44.10]!Lame))
<Kynn> Demi, before you go, I have one question
<Itsy> ban evasion is a gline offense
<Kynn> Thanks, BTW, Itsy
<MonstA> Thank you Itsy...
<FredB> I know I probably didn't do too well answering the questions tonight....
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<Kynn> You wrote to me that you have some "agenda" that I'm not aware of, and you refused to share it; you intimated that you both want to have my job as President, and that you were running just for "fun". Could you please explain this, and what your "hidden agenda" is?
<Itsy> sorry for the disruption folks.
<Itsy> :)
<Kynn> That's okay, Itsy. Thanks again.
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<Demi> Is that what you read? I meant something differnt.
<Kynn> Well, I'm just saying that's how it came across.
<FredB> I'm not really very good at this thinking on fly. :-) I prefer and am much better when I can take my time and seriously consider an issue...
<Demi> I also wrote you in private, if you'll remeber.
<Kynn> Could you explain what you really meant, then?
<Kynn> Yeah, you wrote me in private, I remember that
<Demi> Yes, in private.
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<Demi> Those comments were meant for you only.
<Demi> You know that, Kynn.
<Demi> What's the stunt?
<Kynn> Yes, in private you admitted to having a secret agenda and said you weren't taking your candidacy very seriously.
<Kynn> Which stunt?
<tammy> does that mean you're not willing to explain to the rest of the board
<Demi> What you're attempting to do here.
<Kynn> The "stunt" simply is me requesting further explanation for something you said to me.
<Demi> I did not state that I didn't take the candidacy seriously.
<Demi> I said the outcome didn't matter to me.
<Cheetah> did I walk in at a bad time??? I had a question on web pages...
<Kynn> Really? Huh, that's not how I read it. Would you like to give me permission to quote what you said?
<Demi> Win or lose I'm okay.
<FredB> G
<Demi> No.
<Kynn> Hi Cheetah; right now we're sorta debating, but you can fire away.
<FredB> aGA cheetah
<Demi> You and I can talk privately.
<Demi> Okay?
<MonstA> I'll field that one cheetah...
<tammy> I don't think that's appropriate
<AnnN> Demitrius, the membership should be aware of all agendas that candidates have.
<tammy> it you have somehthing to say ... say it here
<Cheetah> trying to left align my page and it will not let me...
<Kynn> Demi, is there some agenda you have that you're refusing to tell us about?
<Demi> I addressed Kynn, privately.
<AnnN> No, you addressed the Guild.
<tammy> well I'm asking you publically
<Demi> Kynn, I'm paging you privately.
<Kynn> You addressed me privately, yes. And you said something very disturbing.
<Kynn> Yes, I'm aware of that.
<Kynn> I'm concerned about your statements regarding a hidden agenda, though.
<Demi> Take it private Kynn.
<Cheetah> OK forget it... sorry
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<FredB> Just left align, or in a table or something Cheetah
<Welsh> No I think everyone has a right to hear this
<Demi> My agenda is not hidden.
<Kynn> Demi, I'm curious. Is there something you don't want the voters to know about?
<Demi> Just not mentioned yet.
<MonstA> This is getting redundant...
<AnnN> Then tell us about it.
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<Demi> Kynn, take it private.
<AnnN> The board does not hide things from membership, candidates should especially not.
<Kynn> Demi, can I have permission to quote your message in which you claim to have a hidden agenda, that you refuse to talk about?
<Demi> No.
<Demi> Take it private.
<MonstA> This is getting redundant...
<Kynn> It is, yeah.
<AnnN> I believe that request has been denied, repeatedly.
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<Demi> Yes it is.
<Kynn> I guess Demi doesn't want anyone to know what he believes in, or what his agenda is.
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<Demi> Yes I do. But not in the context that I wrote you.
<Kynn> I'll post to hwg-elections stating that Demi apparently has an agenda that he refuses to elaborate on? Would that be fair?
<Demi> Post what you want.
<Demi> I want to talk to you in private.
<Kynn> Go ahead, it's your dime.
<_mickncin> hello all. I have an HTML question. anyone wanna tackle it? :)
<Beeper> hi
<Kynn> We can try, but right now we're also in a meeting too. :)
<MonstA> Fire away...
<Kynn> Although the meeting is probably over.
<MonstA> seems that way...
<_mickncin> Is there anyway for me to do an "#include" in a page?
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<_mickncin> I want to have an easier way
<Kynn> Since Demi refuses to tell us what this big "secret" is. I'm slightly worried that a potential elected GBer has an agenda he refuses to speak about.
<MonstA> Object tag...
<_mickncin> to edit the top of my page.
<Kynn> Mick, what you're looking for is 'server side includes', perhaps.
<Kynn> Check the documentation on the web for it, as well as the docs on your web host -- it may not always be turned on, it's a site-config option usualy.
<_mickncin> and I don't want to use FRAMES. :)
<_mickncin> ok thanks folks. :)
<Joe_Cline> _mickncin2 try /resources/servers/index.html
<Kynn> Joe the Human Hotlist
<Joe_Cline> gotta use the resource, man :)
<_mickncin> thanks joe_cline. will try that url. :)
<FredB> All I have memorized are Logo urls.
<_mickncin> eheheh
<FredB> :-)
<_mickncin> thanks, I just recently joined :)
<Joe_Cline> my pleasure.
<_mickncin> well, I am off to increase my knowledge, thanks for the direction people... I will be around more I am sure. :) LABERZ.
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<Kynn> Well, this seems to be broken up now.
<MonstA> I must go too... My first shift on the rfp-team is early tomarrow... =)
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*** Kynn has set the topic: HTML Writers Guild -- /
<MonstA> It's been interesting...
*** Signoff: MonstA (Is anyone else tired of small talk..?)
<tammy> it's been something .. *g* > It's been that -and- 'something else'. :)
<Kynn> It has been something, yes.
<FredB> It's been surreal (Animaniacs)
<tammy> that it has
<Kynn> I'm somewhat troubled by the candidates who speak in vague terms or even of "hidden agendas"; I do thank you, Fred, for your openness tonight.
<FredB> That's my greatest talent: Stating the obvious. Your welcome Kynn.
<FredB> I would like to have done better though.
<Susan> Thanks to everyone who took the time to join in. I think I learned something, and I hope everyone was able to find out a little about me in the process.
<FredB> Have they figurd out how the voting is going towrk?
<AnnN> in what sense, fred?
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<FredB> Specifically, will Plus members only vote for one person, o up to three?
<FredB> o=or
<AnnN> no, three votes per member, only one vote per candidate (iow, you can't vote 3 times for Jane)
<FredB> That's how we vote for town council where I live.
<FredB> Up to 5
<Kynn> Let's vote for Jane
<FredB> That still leaves two slots open. > I'm gonna kill the log if the candydates don't mind and this event appears to be ended.
<FredB> oops, Forgot. We can't afford to lose Gerald. :-)
<FredB> One slot left.
<Joe_Cline> one for Gerald's body and one for his head
<tammy> LOL
<FredB> Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. :-)
<Joe_Cline> we'd need a third for his brain.
<FredB> Poor jane.
*** Signoff: AnnN (Leaving)
<Welsh> It's been fascinating, but I gotta get some rest.
<FredB> Night. > Bye Char
*** Signoff: Welsh ()
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> Motion passes by default due to significant lack of acclamation, log closes 98/01/20 00:22 EST or thereabouts. Y'All come back soon, ya hear?